"I'm GGG and I approve this message."

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I am sorry, sebby.

Send a brochure, SAMmy.

I understand. I am infuriating.

BTW, you're agreeing with Wonk.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
P.S. You do see that your "enjoying the benefit of their risk" argument could apply to almost any crime, right/

Yeh. That's a lousy explanation. I should scratch that.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I disagree. They are immoral. Tax cheats are partly responsible for sending troops to Iraq without adequate armored vehicles. They bear the blame for crumbling infrastructure, for increasing state level mandates. Tax cheats are responsible for your taxes being so high.

Do ya'll include immigrants who don't pay taxes in that category? Lots of undocumented workers do pay taxes, but a shit load don't.

ETA: BTW, Hank, if Howard is your barometer on how to vote in the primaries on FTC issues, this handy guide by the New York Times might point your lever hand in the right direction.

Also, if you stop talking about Canada, I'll stop slamming you on any healthcare posts you make. We're not Canada, we will never be Canada. Canada is irrelevant to healthcare discussions.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I understand. I am infuriating.

BTW, you're agreeing with Wonk.

He is frequently correct about tax issues. The fact that he and I agree should be a sign to you that you are WRONG.

What is unconstitutional about taxes? Was the whatever amendment not ratified by Ohio, or is it that only foreign-source income is taxable? Or maybe only payments from the gov't to employees of the gov't are taxable?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Do ya'll include immigrants who don't pay taxes in that category? Lots of undocumented workers do pay taxes, but a shit load don't.

anyone.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield


You can't bring morality into this debate because I could make endless arguments in support of the position that not paying taxes is the only true moral approach.

Please lay out your basic argument as to why it is moral for an individual to violate those laws which he deems wrong when they are adopted through the legitimate democratic processes of a society of which he is a part and does not seek to exit.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Please lay out your basic argument as to why it is moral for an individual to violate those laws which he deems wrong when they are adopted through the legitimate democratic processes of a society of which he is a part and does not seek to exit.

I'd say that anyone violating Jim Crow laws was acting morally.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I'd say that anyone violating Jim Crow laws was acting morally.

That's an example, not an answer, but I think it also fails on the "society of which he is a part", if not also the legitimate democratic process.

Granting that, put aside those limited circumstances for which minority rights are specially protected. Or explain (Sebby) why taxation should be enshrined as a minority right.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Please lay out your basic argument as to why it is moral for an individual to violate those laws which he deems wrong when they are adopted through the legitimate democratic processes of a society of which he is a part and does not seek to exit.

It's akin to a conscientious objector. To the extent tax dollars are used to engage in wars or pay for programs one feels are immoral, one could say he's morally compelled to not support such endeavors.

That legislation is achieved through democratic means does not make it moral. You have neatly described what "illegal" means, but "immoral" is a different issue.

One could also argue that, since the system is so inherently flawed and manipulated by immoral interests, and not feeding it being the only way a person can really make a difference, not paying taxes is a righteous civil disobedience aimed at bringing what is immoral to morality.

You could come up with endless justifications.

It is illegal. But whether it is immoral is a subjective issue.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
He is frequently correct about tax issues. The fact that he and I agree should be a sign to you that you are WRONG.

What is unconstitutional about taxes? Was the whatever amendment not ratified by Ohio, or is it that only foreign-source income is taxable? Or maybe only payments from the gov't to employees of the gov't are taxable?

There is an argument made by many tax objectors and tax-haters that the govt has grown into something intrusive far beyond what was contemplated by the Constitution. I'm not going to cite the myriad bases and individual arguments upon which these endless criticisms are based. You can read most of them at the Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute websites or any Ron Paul for President blog.

I don't disagree with you and Wonk that fucking around with your taxes is illegal and probably not too smart. Where I disagree is that it is immoral.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
There is an argument made by many tax objectors and tax-haters that the govt has grown into something intrusive far beyond what was contemplated by the Constitution. I'm not going to cite the myriad bases and individual arguments upon which these endless criticisms are based. You can read most of them at the Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute websites or any Ron Paul for President blog.

Uh, just a couple? I tried searching on the Heritage Foundation site and came up with one thing about Epstein arguing that progressive income taxes are wrong, because you don't benefit more as you earn more. Actually, that makes any kind of income tax wrong, and would only justify a head tax.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Do ya'll include immigrants who don't pay taxes in that category? Lots of undocumented workers do pay taxes, but a shit load don't.

ETA: BTW, Hank, if Howard is your barometer on how to vote in the primaries on FTC issues, this handy guide by the New York Times might point your lever hand in the right direction.

Also, if you stop talking about Canada, I'll stop slamming you on any healthcare posts you make. We're not Canada, we will never be Canada. Canada is irrelevant to healthcare discussions.

I am strongly in favor of immigration reform. I would also favor an amnesty program.

But, as long as they're here illegally, I think they should be deported if they get caught.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
There is an argument made by many tax objectors and tax-haters that the govt has grown into something intrusive far beyond what was contemplated by the Constitution. I'm not going to cite the myriad bases and individual arguments upon which these endless criticisms are based. You can read most of them at the Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute websites or any Ron Paul for President blog.

I don't disagree with you and Wonk that fucking around with your taxes is illegal and probably not too smart. Where I disagree is that it is immoral.

is it moral-neutral to steal a candy bar from te mom and pa store on your corner?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Uh, just a couple? I tried searching on the Heritage Foundation site and came up with one thing about Epstein arguing that progressive income taxes are wrong, because you don't benefit more as you earn more. Actually, that makes any kind of income tax wrong, and would only justify a head tax.

Why? A flat tax isn't progressive.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
It's akin to a conscientious objector. To the extent tax dollars are used to engage in wars or pay for programs one feels are immoral, one could say he's morally compelled to not support such endeavors.

That legislation is achieved through democratic means does not make it moral. You have neatly described what "illegal" means, but "immoral" is a different issue.

One could also argue that, since the system is so inherently flawed and manipulated by immoral interests, and not feeding it being the only way a person can really make a difference, not paying taxes is a righteous civil disobedience aimed at bringing what is immoral to morality.

You could come up with endless justifications.

It is illegal. But whether it is immoral is a subjective issue.

Conscientious Objectors make their stand, but are prepared to go to jail for their beliefs. Witness Muhammad Ali.