I used to be disgusted, and now I try to be amused.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by notcasesensitive

I watched Weiner tonight. I missed his short-lived return to politics in 2013. He'll be back to politics again at some point, right? He seems incapable of sitting on the sidelines...

He'd be better served to become someone's chief of staff. Unfortunately, he's too in love with the cameras.

TM

[SEC_Chick]

Originally Posted by notcasesensitive

I watched Weiner tonight. I missed his short-lived return to politics in 2013. He'll be back to politics again at some point, right? He seems incapable of sitting on the sidelines...

After the John Miller nonsense last week, I was hoping for a bi-partisan John Miller/Carlos Danger ticket. That would be awesome.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Here's the thing on this topic...and I'll say it knowing full well you're not going to hear it (whether it's intentional or not, I'll let you decide):

Bill Maher is guilty of this and, since you're 1:1 with him on this, so are you.

1. The idea that people who suffer from relatively less important unequal and unfair treatment--relative to life-threatening issues like police brutality and the existence of police black sites, etc.--should stop their belly-achin' is fucking ridiculous. It's the same as when I hear people tell me that successful blacks should stop complaining because they have it good when compared to those who are truly suffering. And I hear this shit constantly (e.g., "I'm sick of these black millionaire actors complaining about the lack of roles/nominations/equal treatment in pay. Black people are dying in the streets!" or "Hey, Thurgreed, you have it good. You're a partner at an international law firm. No one wants to hear about your lack of access to clients/leadership positions at the firm/equal treatment in pay! Most black people don't make anywhere near what you do!").
   
   This type of shit is infuriating. And minorities have been hearing it for centuries at every level of "achievement." House slaves should stop complaining, they have it good, compared to field slaves. Free blacks should stop complaining because at least they're not slaves. Blacks should stop complaining about separate facilities since it wasn't that long ago they weren't allowed anywhere. Blacks should stop complaining about poor job/education/living conditions, things are getting better. On and on and on.
   
   Why should anyone at any level settle for less than they deserve because there are bigger problems in the world? It's the most illogical, bullshit, misdirection to keep things the way they are for as long as possible by those who benefit-tactic going. And I see it a lot. Don't be that jackass.
   
2. You have bought in completely to the narrative pushed by small-minded assholes who can't be bothered to treat people with respect and therefore actively lump in the ridiculous instances of the "PC police gone wild" with all other legitimate instances of discrimination so that they can shoo it all away.
   
   The prominence of stories of people who are so far past the extreme on the PC spectrum is fun to read about, but holy shit. Comedians not being able to make borderline jokes on campus is stupid and wrong, but the fact that I read about that and stories of PC police shutting down some professor who just wants kids to be allowed to make offensive Halloween costume mistakes <sniff.> all the damn time and then have to listen to someone talk about that stuff like the inconvenience of either of those things amounts to an out-of-control PC world is fucking ridiculous.
   
3. The ridicule of microaggressions is something only people who generally don't give a shit about how people expect to be treated engage in. I went to a small liberal arts school in the Midwest. I was one of maybe 50 black people on a campus of 2,000. And let me tell you something, microaggressions (although we didn't have a word for it back then) is fucking real and it's tiring. Trust me. To this day, where I am one of two black people at a ~200 person firm, having to navigate an environment designed by and for white people is exhausting. The microaggressions I experience are real and they wear on you. Just because I don't complain to you about them doesn't mean they don't exist. So when you hear about them, why not listen and think about what you might do to recognize when you're participating rather than bitch about something else that's too PC.
   
   Anyone who shuts off because they've heard the buzzword too often and thinks it's boring or annoying having to listen to people complain about it needs some perspective. And quite often, it's these assholes who can't fucking deal and throw the biggest fits if they believe they've been overlooked or slighted somehow. It's just amazing.

TM

Here's my thoughts, for whatever they are worth, which ain't much, I know.

I understand and see everything you are saying. What I don't understand is how I am supposed to react to this white privilege on an every day level. I am conscious of, and make react to people and make choices in such a way as to recognize the inherent racism in my actions in commerce and social interactions.

But what about how people react to me? Am I supposed to turn down an engagement because in a more just world more opportunities would be offered to black females? The particular engagement I am being offered will not be used to try and achieve more balance if I decline it. It will go to another white male, because those are the people my client knows. If I am in the grocery store and a black man defers to me in line at the cashier (which happens in Georgia and it disgusts me) what can I do other than telling the person to go ahead in front of me, which he won't. He'll insist on my going first because he is elderly, it is Savannah, and it's what he knows.

Knowing I enjoy a certain privilege does not necessarily equate to me always being able to neutralize it. I can be sympathetic to your situation, but I cannot change it and I don't understand why or how I should put myself at a disadvantage when that action will not do anything to help equalize the imbalance, other than possibly having me put myself at a disadvantage just to offset the cosmic imbalance.

I can use the black handyman instead of some white guy who gets more work. Am I supposed to break more shit in order to make sure the black guy gets additional work?

I'm not being sarcastic, and I am not making light of what I agree is the existing climate. But I can't really do a lot to make the world less racist or sexist. All I can do is try to be less racist or sexist myself, and I feel at times some people want to me to feel that is not enough.

[SEC_Chick]

To file under news to no one who has spent 5 minutes on FB or Twitter in the past year, a new poll shows that Trump supporters are most likely to self-identify as racist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b060aa781b32ce

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

To file under news to no one who has spent 5 minutes on FB or Twitter in the past year, a new poll shows that Trump supporters are most likely to self-identify as racist.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b060aa781b32ce

I was going to say something like "nice party you've got there." But I'm sure that these attitudes have nothing to do with the active promoting of hatred towards Obama over the last eight years --- not policy disagreement, but actual hatred and accusations of intentionally undermining America.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

'I recalled a remark that the philosopher Richard Rorty made back in 1997 about “the old industrialized democracies…heading into a Weimar-like period.” Citing evidence from “many writers on socioeconomic policy,” Rorty suggested that

members of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers—themselves desperately afraid of being downsized—are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.

At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for—someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots….

One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion…. All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet.'

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016...Donald%20Trump

You've described Trump's base. Bernie's base would extend the advances made by black and brown Americans, etc. and increase those advances. Neither Trump nor Bernie would be able to fully put their program into place. Hilary's appeal to most people is that she will stick to the mediocrity and half-measures we have in place now, which they view as being the only politically feasible option. They are settling.

The irony in all of this is that the institutions, like banks, auto makers, etc. that you argue are too big to fail because the whole economy will melt down are also the biggest impediments to real progress in social justice. I can't say I blame anyone for being afraid of a meltdown. But they should know that they are propping up the very roadblocks to the progress they claim to want so badly, and they should own that.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

You've described Trump's base. Bernie's base would extend the advances made by black and brown Americans, etc. and increase those advances. Neither Trump nor Bernie would be able to fully put their program into place. Hilary's appeal to most people is that she will stick to the mediocrity and half-measures we have in place now, which they view as being the only politically feasible option. They are settling.

The irony in all of this is that the institutions, like banks, auto makers, etc. that you argue are too big to fail because the whole economy will melt down are also the biggest impediments to real progress in social justice. I can't say I blame anyone for being afraid of a meltdown. But they should know that they are propping up the very roadblocks to the progress they claim to want so badly, and they should own that.

Bernie's base is a bunch of middle aged white men and young college students who haven't been around long enough to actually have experience getting stuff done. They're high maintenance and self-congratulatory, but they're not the real change drivers.

Hillary's base is minorities, women, and all the folks who have actually driven progress over the years.

Whatever you think of the candidates, I like Hillary's core vote of women and minorities a lot more than Bernie's, and candidate do tend to respond to their base.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

[QUOTE=taxwonk;501036]Here's my thoughts, for whatever they are worth, which ain't much, I know.


I think the being gracious to the guy being gracious to you in the check out line is a plus. Just being people counts.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Bernie's base is a bunch of middle aged white men and young college students who haven't been around long enough to actually have experience getting stuff done. They're high maintenance and self-congratulatory, but they're not the real change drivers.

Hillary's base is minorities, women, and all the folks who have actually driven progress over the years.

Whatever you think of the candidates, I like Hillary's core vote of women and minorities a lot more than Bernie's, and candidate do tend to respond to their base.

That's a nice little bit of snark, but it in no way addresses the point I was making, which is that Hilary's big appeal is that she won't try to change things too drastically, so the sea change the author Thurgreed quoted as predicting is not likely to come.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

There is a core area where I can do something about privilege, my little bit: hiring and referrals. I checked myself yesterday sending out a referral, my first instinct was to send it to someone who looked like me, middle aged, white, who I'd swapped referrals with before. Yeah, that's how the system gets perpetuated. I gave them the names of a couple of my old associates, younger and more diverse.

Likewise, I have spent a ton of time in hiring processes where lots of little things add up to very direct white privilege. Someone bonds over their shares experiences in an ivy league frat, or over coming from the same lily white town, or any number of other little things.

What does it all add up to? Value working with all people, and don't just bond over white people's shit.

So you pretty much handle it the same way I do and there isn't really anything we can do as individuals to change this at the cultural/institutional level. We do what we can to act with good intent and good effect and we hope enough of us change enough that eventually the culture will shift in a more inclusive direction.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by SEC_Chick

After the John Miller nonsense last week, I was hoping for a bi-partisan John Miller/Carlos Danger ticket. That would be awesome.

Why are you the first person saying this? This is awesome.

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Hi! Did you miss the Daily Dose? Who cares? Here is Rufus Thomas doing a couple of numbers live at the Wattstax festival in 1973, and leading one of the funkiest dance parties EVER.

EVER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCFyKRtlLOI

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Here's my thoughts, for whatever they are worth, which ain't much, I know.

I understand and see everything you are saying. What I don't understand is how I am supposed to react to this white privilege on an every day level. I am conscious of, and make react to people and make choices in such a way as to recognize the inherent racism in my actions in commerce and social interactions.

But what about how people react to me? Am I supposed to turn down an engagement because in a more just world more opportunities would be offered to black females? The particular engagement I am being offered will not be used to try and achieve more balance if I decline it. It will go to another white male, because those are the people my client knows. If I am in the grocery store and a black man defers to me in line at the cashier (which happens in Georgia and it disgusts me) what can I do other than telling the person to go ahead in front of me, which he won't. He'll insist on my going first because he is elderly, it is Savannah, and it's what he knows.

Knowing I enjoy a certain privilege does not necessarily equate to me always being able to neutralize it. I can be sympathetic to your situation, but I cannot change it and I don't understand why or how I should put myself at a disadvantage when that action will not do anything to help equalize the imbalance, other than possibly having me put myself at a disadvantage just to offset the cosmic imbalance.

I can use the black handyman instead of some white guy who gets more work. Am I supposed to break more shit in order to make sure the black guy gets additional work?

I'm not being sarcastic, and I am not making light of what I agree is the existing climate. But I can't really do a lot to make the world less racist or sexist. All I can do is try to be less racist or sexist myself, and I feel at times some people want to me to feel that is not enough.

No worries. Listen, I've had this conversation so many times (starting with my position as black spokesman at my college in every class in which I was the only black person--like 80%--to my position as co-chair of the diversity committee at my firm). I am happy to have these conversations with people who generally want to think about this stuff thoughtfully.

I think your examples are very specific so that they are easy for you to throw your hands up and say, "The world is racist/sexist/homophobic," and feel better about who you are as a person who doesn't like or condone that fact. Of course you realize the advantages. I understand that you understand that our world is set up to suit you and to give you advantages I don't have at every level. I don't expect you to avoid every advantage because you know many of them are unfair.

What I do expect is:

• for people to understand that those advantages exist
• for people to avoid looking for every possible answer to a racist situation that doesn't involve racism to explain it away
• for people to educate themselves on their own racism and unconscious bias and to make an effort to address it
• for people to actively battle the racism that occurs when people of color aren't around--hell, I don't know how many times on this board people have said they would rather not have an uncomfortable conversation with someone who is racist. I don't get that. I know people who think Jews control everything or that gay people should be ridiculed. I speak up and let them know that shit isn't right, I don't like it, and if they're even a little bit open, have a conversation about it
• for people to stop looking at our political system (as so many do) as something set up for people to grab as much for themselves as they can. If Giuliani is a fucking goose-stepping asshole with his boot on the neck of blacks and Latinos in your city, don't fucking vote for him just because your neighborhood is cleaner and nicer
• similarly, if the cops and the DA are racist AF, don't leave it to the poor black people who are being screwed to be the only ones who do anything about it

The last part can really be expanded to all sorts of shit. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean you don't need to do something about it.

When you're in a position to give someone a summer associate position, consider the whole fucking picture instead of advantage-based snapshot that consists solely of school and transcript. Who is a better candidate? A kid who grew up with nothing, came from nowhere, and graduated with a B+ from a second tier school or the kid who had every advantage, is a legacy, and graduated with a B from Harvard?

When you break some shit and need some help, give some business to the black guy. I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous "Should I break more shit" comment because it's...well, ridiculous.

Stop attributing every bad experience you've had with someone of a particular race with their entire race. This is probably one of the toughest for people to see, let alone fix. Understand that you sure as hell don't do that when a white person does something shitty.

Confirmation bias is real and if you pay attention to the news, you'll see it every night (in the news and in yourself--when a black guy is a suspect versus when a white guy's a suspect, be honest with yourself and take note of how you think about the report differently and then decide to change how you think).

Think about the effect microaggressions have on people. Back in college, some white student who was engaged in a similar conversation with a few black students said, "The other day I asked how Aminah's hair grew so quickly over the summer and she got mad when I went to touch it. What's the big deal?" She was generally surprised when someone told her that on a campus of 2,000 students, having a dozen people a day ask you the same stupid question while pawing at your hair may get really frustrating. The fact that she didn't understand that black people know all about her and her culture from being bombarded with it and surrounded by it all the time, and that she couldn't be bothered to take any time at all to educate herself on her own time about braids and how extra hair is braided in and how black people's hair doesn't grow any faster, etc. didn't even occur to her. The newest thing is for people to only "see" trends when white people adopt it. Big butts are in! Kylie introduced us to braided hair! Black people are all sitting here, like what the actual fuck?

The best I can do without writing a (longer) treatise is to say: Stop thinking about problems that blacks, Asians, Latinos, and LGBT experience as their problem or something they endure. Start thinking about it as your problem too. Tim Wise is really the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. Obviously you're not going to hit that mark. But a little bit of that by everyone would go a long way. (And think about your response to Adder earlier today in that context.)

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

You've described Trump's base. Bernie's base would extend the advances made by black and brown Americans, etc. and increase those advances.

Wasn't me. It was the guy I was quoting who was so prescient so many years ago.

Originally Posted by taxwonk

Neither Trump nor Bernie would be able to fully put their program into place. Hilary's appeal to most people is that she will stick to the mediocrity and half-measures we have in place now, which they view as being the only politically feasible option. They are settling.

No. This is bullshit. Hillary's appeal is that she will get shit done. Hillary's appeal is that she is practical and actually takes us forward, maybe at a slower pace, but surely forward.

Bernie is pie in the sky. I like what he says, but his grand pronouncements are not feasible. They are not possible. He would not be legislator in chief. He would be President. And I don't know why anyone who has lived in this country over the last 8 years thinks that anything Bernie has espoused that requires legislative action is possible in the current political climate.

Originally Posted by taxwonk

The irony in all of this is that the institutions, like banks, auto makers, etc. that you argue are too big to fail because the whole economy will melt down are also the biggest impediments to real progress in social justice. I can't say I blame anyone for being afraid of a meltdown. But they should know that they are propping up the very roadblocks to the progress they claim to want so badly, and they should own that.

This is your funniest comment yet. Who do you think will suffer the most in a meltdown? Who always suffers the most when there is a recession? Poor people. And especially, poor black people. First to get hit. Last to recover.

I assume we're back to letting the entire financial system collapse in '08. If that's the case, I need you to give me a detailed explanation of how reducing the entire financial system to garbage gets us where we need to be. You're talking suffering the world over for millions upon millions of people. I need for you to explain to me how this gets built back up such that the change you think would occur actually occurs.

TM

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

No worries. Listen, I've had this conversation so many times (starting with my position as black spokesman at my college in every class in which I was the only black person--like 80%--to my position as co-chair of the diversity committee at my firm). I am happy to have these conversations with people who generally want to think about this stuff thoughtfully.

I think your examples are very specific so that they are easy for you to throw your hands up and say, "The world is racist/sexist/homophobic," and feel better about who you are as a person who doesn't like or condone that fact. Of course you realize the advantages. I understand that you understand that our world is set up to suit you and to give you advantages I don't have at every level. I don't expect you to avoid every advantage because you know many of them are unfair.

What I do expect is:

• for people to understand that those advantages exist
• for people to avoid looking for every possible answer to a racist situation that doesn't involve racism to explain it away
• for people to educate themselves on their own racism and unconscious bias and to make an effort to address it
• for people to actively battle the racism that occurs when people of color aren't around--hell, I don't know how many times on this board people have said they would rather not have an uncomfortable conversation with someone who is racist. I don't get that. I know people who think Jews control everything or that gay people should be ridiculed. I speak up and let them know that shit isn't right, I don't like it, and if they're even a little bit open, have a conversation about it
• for people to stop looking at our political system (as so many do) as something set up for people to grab as much for themselves as they can. If Giuliani is a fucking goose-stepping asshole with his boot on the neck of blacks and Latinos in your city, don't fucking vote for him just because your neighborhood is cleaner and nicer
• similarly, if the cops and the DA are racist AF, don't leave it to the poor black people who are being screwed to be the only ones who do anything about it

The last part can really be expanded to all sorts of shit. Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean you don't need to do something about it.

When you're in a position to give someone a summer associate position, consider the whole fucking picture instead of advantage-based snapshot that consists solely of school and transcript. Who is a better candidate? A kid who grew up with nothing, came from nowhere, and graduated with a B+ from a second tier school or the kid who had every advantage, is a legacy, and graduated with a B from Harvard?

When you break some shit and need some help, give some business to the black guy. I'm gonna ignore the ridiculous "Should I break more shit" comment because it's...well, ridiculous.

Stop attributing every bad experience you've had with someone of a particular race with their entire race. This is probably one of the toughest for people to see, let alone fix. Understand that you sure as hell don't do that when a white person does something shitty.

Confirmation bias is real and if you pay attention to the news, you'll see it every night (in the news and in yourself--when a black guy is a suspect versus when a white guy's a suspect, be honest with yourself and take note of how you think about the report differently and then decide to change how you think).

Think about the effect microaggressions have on people. Back in college, some white student who was engaged in a similar conversation with a few black students said, "The other day I asked how Aminah's hair grew so quickly over the summer and she got mad when I went to touch it. What's the big deal?" She was generally surprised when someone told her that on a campus of 2,000 students, having a dozen people a day ask you the same stupid question while pawing at your hair may get really frustrating. The fact that she didn't understand that black people know all about her and her culture from being bombarded with it and surrounded by it all the time, and that she couldn't be bothered to take any time at all to educate herself on her own time about braids and how extra hair is braided in and how black people's hair doesn't grow any faster, etc. didn't even occur to her. The newest thing is for people to only "see" trends when white people adopt it. Big butts are in! Kylie introduced us to braided hair! Black people are all sitting here, like what the actual fuck?

The best I can do without writing a (longer) treatise is to say: Stop thinking about problems that blacks, Asians, Latinos, and LGBT experience as their problem or something they endure. Start thinking about it as your problem too. Tim Wise is really the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. Obviously you're not going to hit that mark. But a little bit of that by everyone would go a long way. (And think about your response to Adder earlier today in that context.)

TM

It's posts like this that keep me coming back here.


At least, that's been the case since the whole "show your tits" phase ended.