We are all Slave now.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Populism arises from corrupt and incompetent elites mismanaging the state. That’s historical fact.

I’d say the difference between the GOP and Dems is the GOP are French aristocracy and the Dems are Romans. One lies and tells the rabble to eat cake. The other lies and placates the rabble with bread and circuses.

Looking at what happened to those two states, it can be argued the French mismanagement results are preferable.

(But yes, generally, the GOP is more loathesome on the issue at hand. However, that’s immaterial where neither one has a useful solution and is only trying to kick the can down the road by bullshitting the little people.)

The third party voters are akin to the Germans, ready to accept whatever horrors come their way while they indulge themselves in disdain for everyone else.

I continually debate whether the third-party and independent cretins are more loathsome than the GOP or not. They are really hand-in-glove in what they're doing to this country.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

The third party voters are akin to the Germans, ready to accept whatever horrors come their way while they indulge themselves in disdain for everyone else.

I continually debate whether the third-party and independent cretins are more loathsome than the GOP or not. They are really hand-in-glove in what they're doing to this country.

So I'm a "monster," a Nazi enabler, and a "cretin."

You think maybe you're just a tad dramatic here? You have defied Godwin's Law...

I am espousing a view of politics that differs from yours. And not dramatically. We actually agree on most things.

You owe no duty of civility to anyone, and I'd be the first to defend your right to be coarse. But shrillness is part of your side's problem. The response to disagreement isn't venom or hysteria.

There was a guy named Bret Stephens on Maher the other night. He hates Trump. I mean, really, seriously fucking loathes Trump. But instead of defaulting to invective, or playing to the idiot liberals in Maher's crowd who howl when people call Trump a baboon, he just coolly, calmly, destroyed everything Trump stands for, and explained why it's contrary to true Republican ideals. (He voted for Hillary, by the way, so he doesn't agree with me, either.)

I understand this isn't a formal debate forum. But generally, what you've done in comparing third party voters to Nazis is play right into Trump's hands. He wants the emotional argument. He wants the self-righteous indignation.

You can't wrestle in the mud with this pig and the bigot/xenophobe arm of his base. You can only play the adults in the room and hope it works.

Also, there is 000.00% value in calling out every one of Trump's lies and dissecting in detail why they are wrong. While the Left does that, Trump has already lied again five more times. It's like handing out speeding tickets at a Nascar event. He's lying serially on purpose. He knows it occupies all of the media's time, forces them to focus on ten small things at once, and gives him 100% of the coverage 100% of the time.

You're getting worked. Played like a fiddle. Stop doing so.

The way to address Trump is with zero emotion. Treat him as serious developers in NY have for years -- snicker at him, ignore him, and if asked about him, raise an eyelid and say, "the man's a buffoon... next subject."

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

So I'm a "monster," a Nazi enabler, and a "cretin."

You think maybe you're just a tad dramatic here? You have defied Godwin's Law...

I am espousing a view of politics that differs from yours. And not dramatically. We actually agree on most things.

You owe no duty of civility to anyone, and I'd be the first to defend your right to be coarse. But shrillness is part of your side's problem. The response to disagreement isn't venom or hysteria.

There was a guy named Bret Stephens on Maher the other night. He hates Trump. I mean, really, seriously fucking loathes Trump. But instead of defaulting to invective, or playing to the idiot liberals in Maher's crowd who howl when people call Trump a baboon, he just coolly, calmly, destroyed everything Trump stands for, and explained why it's contrary to true Republican ideals. (He voted for Hillary, by the way, so he doesn't agree with me, either.)

I understand this isn't a formal debate forum. But generally, what you've done in comparing third party voters to Nazis is play right into Trump's hands. He wants the emotional argument. He wants the self-righteous indignation.

You can't wrestle in the mud with this pig and the bigot/xenophobe arm of his base. You can only play the adults in the room and hope it works.

Also, there is 000.00% value in calling out every one of Trump's lies and dissecting in detail why they are wrong. While the Left does that, Trump has already lied again five more times. It's like handing out speeding tickets at a Nascar event. He's lying serially on purpose. He knows it occupies all of the media's time, forces them to focus on ten small things at once, and gives him 100% of the coverage 100% of the time.

You're getting worked. Played like a fiddle. Stop doing so.

The way to address Trump is with zero emotion. Treat him as serious developers in NY have for years -- snicker at him, ignore him, and if asked about him, raise an eyelid and say, "the man's a buffoon... next subject."

Dude, you're dressed in a clown suit making fun of "both parties". At least look in the mirror.

But I seem to have hit a nerve. Sure, as dylan would say, it's not you babe.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Dude, you're dressed in a clown suit making fun of "both parties". At least look in the mirror.

Anyone who reduces the Democratic Party to "giving away shit for votes" wouldn't be taken seriously at a clown convention.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Careful. Reading between the lines of the other board* from yesterday, Ty is one of several socks who lost 60 pounds. Less asked about excess skin and every loser but Ty said they had none. Ty's silence might mean he has so much he really can no longer contemplate his navel.

It might, or it might mean that I just met Less for lunch and he's wondering whether everyone else looks as fantastic as I do.

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The way to address Trump is with zero emotion. Treat him as serious developers in NY have for years -- snicker at him, ignore him, and if asked about him, raise an eyelid and say, "the man's a buffoon... next subject."

Sadly, he’s president so we can’t ignore him. Leaving aside corruption, Russia and obstruction of justice, and his lies on everything from the crowd size at his inauguration to the reasons he disinvited the Eagles to the White House, thanks to you and people like you, we have:

The Religious Right in control of social policies

The separation of families who are legally seeking asylum in the US (with the kids being held in what a sitting senator described as dog cages)

A trade policy that coddles the Chinese and punishes our closest allies (was thinking about this today because we’re screwing Canada and the UK, aka the two countries who equally shared in the sacrifice and victory at Normandy).

A tax plan that gave away the farm to business and the 1% while giving a tax hike via elimination of the SALT deduction to people who live in places that didn’t vote for him

Encouraged actual Nazis in Charlottesville

I could go on.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Dude, you're dressed in a clown suit making fun of "both parties". At least look in the mirror.

But I seem to have hit a nerve. Sure, as dylan would say, it's not you babe.

You've not hit a nerve at all. You've caused me to critique what I think is a hyperbolic response.

Clown is better. A little less emotional.

I'm absolutely making fun of both parties. The France vs. Rome analogy holds quite nicely.

"Fuck the losers" vs. "We ought to give things to the losers that placate them for as long as we can."

Either way, the losers stay losers, and no one's got a solution.

And that population of losers? It's growing. More than the population of winners.

(Smartest move, I think, is to plan to potentially retire in a different country.)

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Anyone who reduces the Democratic Party to "giving away shit for votes" wouldn't be taken seriously at a clown convention.

TM

The GOP does it, too. They don't cut the budget at all. Hell, they balloon it. Medicare Part D?

But in general, they serve donor class masters more exclusively. The Democrats have a two pronged approach: Serve the donors and the voters (but never serve the latter in a manner than imperils the gains of the former). The GOP is more, Serve the donors and lie to the voters.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Populism arises from corrupt and incompetent elites mismanaging the state. That’s historical fact.

I’d say the difference between the GOP and Dems is the GOP are French aristocracy and the Dems are Romans. One lies and tells the rabble to eat cake. The other lies and placates the rabble with bread and circuses.

Looking at what happened to those two states, it can be argued the French mismanagement results are preferable.

(But yes, generally, the GOP is more loathesome on the issue at hand. However, that’s immaterial where neither one has a useful solution and is only trying to kick the can down the road by bullshitting the little people.)

Republicans have made a decision to turn to populism. It's not something "we" did.

I went to a high-school graduation last night and one of the speakers pointed out that Marie Antoinette (who was Austrian) did not say, let them eat cake, a myth that appeared about fifty years later. So that eighteen-year-old is a step ahead of you.

Your comparison of Republicans/Democrats to the French aristocracy/Romans is dumb, and sheds no light on either. Saying that both sides lie is, when the White House Press Secretary lies from the podium, not a bold truth but a lazy way to avoid coming to terms with who is lying about what. As is saying that neither side has a "useful solution".

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

Sadly, he’s president so we can’t ignore him. Leaving aside corruption, Russia and obstruction of justice, and his lies on everything from the crowd size at his inauguration to the reasons he disinvited the Eagles to the White House, thanks to you and people like you, we have:

The Religious Right in control of social policies

The separation of families who are legally seeking asylum in the US (with the kids being held in what a sitting senator described as dog cages)

A trade policy that coddles the Chinese and punishes our closest allies (was thinking about this today because we’re screwing Canada and the UK, aka the two countries who equally shared in the sacrifice and victory at Normandy).

A tax plan that gave away the farm to business and the 1% while giving a tax hike via elimination of the SALT deduction to people who live in places that didn’t vote for him

Encouraged actual Nazis in Charlottesville

I could go on.

Vote him out.

Stop reacting to him. Too much of the Left comes off frivolous and out-of-touch. When the coastal media folks screech emotionally about Trump, they bring out more Trump voters.

The base Trumpkin wants to associate himself with "winning" (in much the same way low class whites vote GOP because they think it's the party of "money"). The only way to combat that is beat Trump. Make him a loser. Most importantly, this is done at the ballot box. But of significant secondary importance is showing him impotent, unimportant, someone who can be ignored. If he's not given attention, if he's not fought with on silly issues like kneeling at football games, he loses stature. Trump is nothing but stature. Take away the attention, the stature, and he will self-implode.

The worst thing the coastal papers and magazines can do is keep putting him on the cover, under clever headlines calling him a rube. This galvanizes rubes who love him. The better thing to do is run covers on issues unrelated to him. And only grudgingly comment on him, and when forced to so so, offer something like, "oh, that man... whatever."

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Anyone who reduces the Democratic Party to "giving away shit for votes" wouldn't be taken seriously at a clown convention.

TM

I stand corrected.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Republicans have made a decision to turn to populism. It's not something "we" did.

Bullshit. We enabled it. If we'd not ignored the Trumpkins, there wouldn't be Trumpkins.

I went to a high-school graduation last night and one of the speakers pointed out that Marie Antoinette (who was Austrian) did not say, let them eat cake, a myth that appeared about fifty years later. So that eighteen-year-old is a step ahead of you.

Don't be a tool. The quote is associated with the French revolution, and I attributed it generally. I did not cite Antoinette as the source.

The French ignored the angered masses. The Romans gave them circuses.

Your comparison of Republicans/Democrats to the French aristocracy/Romans is dumb, and sheds no light on either.

I'm no Niall Ferguson or David McCullough, so I'm not getting in the weeds with you, where you'll pick some tiny misquote and hold it up as rebuttal (by the way, stop doing that). But as analogues for the proposition one side says "Fuck the rabble" and the other says, "Placate the rabble," while neither does anything substantive to fix the rabble's problems, France and Rome work quite nicely.

(Cue GGG commenting on Ferguson here. Never forget to shoot the messenger!)

Saying that both sides lie is, when the White House Press Secretary lies from the podium, not a bold truth but a lazy way to avoid coming to terms with who is lying about what. As is saying that neither side has a "useful solution".

What's mutually exclusive in these statements, both of which I've said:

"The GOP lies more, and in a more loathsome manner."

"Both sides lie."

What's the Democrats' solution to the problems that gave rose to this populism? Job retraining? Moar education!!! A European welfare state? They have no real answers. None. They have band aids... for stage 3 melanoma.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

What's the Democrats' solution to the problems that gave rose to this populism? Job retraining? Moar education!!! A European welfare state?

What's yours?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

What's yours?

1. UBI (Replacing 50% of current transfer programs)
2. "Rentier Capitalist" Tax (Use classical economic definition of "rents" and tax income falling within that category at 25%)
3. Undo all Trump immigration constraints and create incentives for highly skilled immigrants to move to economically challenged areas where they can aid development. Trumpkins won't like this at first, but it will help them.
4. Transparency. Tell the nation exactly what the CIA and DOD have forecast regarding the impact of automation and globalization. Tell these fourth generation coal miners in WV it's time to move the kids in with the cousins in the cities, and not raise another hopeless generation beholden to a dying industry.
5. Single payer
6. New New Deal. Create a massive infrastructure bank to contribute to infrastructure spending with state, local, and private partners. End the grants and force the locals to find creative, more cost-effective ways to deliver more projects. Mandate prevailing union wage on all projects into which the bank lends.
7. Make fed-backed student loans 50% dischargeable in bankruptcy. Make private student loans 100% dischargeable.
8. In the case of fed backed student loans, allow feds to clawback full amount of loan from institution where any borrower defaults for in excess of 180 days within five years of graduation.
9. Increase capital gains rate to something near parity with labor.
10. Slap a punitive (35-50%) tax on coporations paying CEOs in excess of a certain ratio in relation to average worker.
11. Repeal McCarran Ferguson and let insurers compete nationally.

That's a start.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

There was a guy named Bret Stephens on Maher the other night. He hates Trump. I mean, really, seriously fucking loathes Trump. But instead of defaulting to invective, or playing to the idiot liberals in Maher's crowd who howl when people call Trump a baboon, he just coolly, calmly, destroyed everything Trump stands for, and explained why it's contrary to true Republican ideals. (He voted for Hillary, by the way, so he doesn't agree with me, either.)

People like Bret Stephens have no political constituency. He has a spot on the NYT editorial page because the NYT longs for your "true Republican ideals". As you apparently do. Elevating Bret Stephens is an act of denial about what most conservatives want, think and do.