We are all Slave now.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I would expect those who describe themselves as traditional conservatives or libertarians would object to such things as well, though they don't seem to.

Why do people say shit like this? Sure, personally they may think some of it is wrong. But they don't give a flying fuck. Conservatives have either been or sided with racists since they invented conservatism. The two things go hand-in-hand. Same with evangelicals. Hell, the fucking feminist movement way back--when it was apparent that suffrage was an either/or proposition--immediately flipped to racist principles in order to win. Conservatives care about their own shit. And if they get it, nothing else matters.

"We've destroyed who we are as a country, given up on freedom of religion by Supreme Court decision down party lines, destroyed our standing in the world, abandoned free trade, shit on all of our allies, embraced authoritarian leaders, allowed a hostile country to influence our elections, have a President who is clearly in Putin's pocket, is a clear racist, homophobic xenophobe, and who is completely inept, ignorant, vain, fragile, and stupid and so obviously corrupt that the White House is essentially for sale. But we got tax cuts and will control the Supreme Court, so it's all worth it."

Fuck them.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Yes, yes, that Trump man can certainly be a bit of a boor, calling the Mexicans rapists and saying that the African countries are shitholes and separating those little children from their families and all that. Dreadful stuff, indeed. And I certainly don't support any of that tomfoolery, but if there is anything that is even worse than all of that, it is the horribly tedious complaining by the liberal elites about these sorts of things. If I have to listen to one more so-called progressive say that it is not o.k. to mock dying veterans, or children with Downs Syndrome, I swear on the bible that I might just nod off. That Sebastian fellow is spot on -- can we just talk about automation? I suppose the only answer is to vote for Trump again to teach those boring complainers to keep their mouths shut.

Exactly. So sick of this constant bullshit.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Mueller has up his sleeve money laundering, Russian and other foreign government payments to Cohen and evidence that Trump knew about and participated in both things. You're already on Team Nothingburger.

Yes on all except knowledge. Stone and Manafort had to have put layers of middlemen into the organization to allow Trump to hold plausible deniability. But, alternatively, Trump's powers of stupidity are near limitless...

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Yes on all except knowledge. Stone and Manafort had to have put layers of middlemen into the organization to allow Trump to hold plausible deniability. But, alternatively, Trump's powers of stupidity are near limitless...

I'm betting that have Trump on tape talking to Cohen. There are no layers between the two and they've been laundering money together for years.

The rub may be that it's only during the transition, though, giving you opportunity to again proclaim nothingburger.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This is a very high stakes, complicated chess game. But it's also being played by a fool. The progression is fascinating.

I can't say I admire Trump, as he's got ludicrous and cruel policies, and I think he's going to worsen and accelerate a recession. I also find him personally offensive and dumb.

But, watching him amass a counter to the most powerful investigative agency in the country and take over the GOP is engrossing. It's hard to not guess at strategy and take the inside baseball approach to the events as they unfold.

Given what Mark Warner said at Martha's Vineyard last week, I think we're going to see an insane showdown.

My hope is we have something truly shocking that causes a further discrediting of the system, followed by a reappraisal of how we do politics at all levels in this country. It may turn out that Trump's own criminality is the thing that actually "drains the swamp."

Or, it might turn out to be a giant nothing. So my feelings right now are: 1. Boredom at the Trump v. Left back and forth; 2. Suspense at what Mueller has up his sleeve, and how Machiavellian Trump will go.

You should go to Jerusalem and visit Yad Vashem. Looking at the exhibits on Europe in the 30s, you'd recognize yourself.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Why do people say shit like this? Sure, personally they may think some of it is wrong. But they don't give a flying fuck. Conservatives have either been or sided with racists since they invented conservatism. The two things go hand-in-hand. Same with evangelicals. Hell, the fucking feminist movement way back--when it was apparent that suffrage was an either/or proposition--immediately flipped to racist principles in order to win. Conservatives care about their own shit. And if they get it, nothing else matters.

"We've destroyed who we are as a country, given up on freedom of religion by Supreme Court decision down party lines, destroyed our standing in the world, abandoned free trade, shit on all of our allies, embraced authoritarian leaders, allowed a hostile country to influence our elections, have a President who is clearly in Putin's pocket, is a clear racist, homophobic xenophobe, and who is completely inept, ignorant, vain, fragile, and stupid and so obviously corrupt that the White House is essentially for sale. But we got tax cuts and will control the Supreme Court, so it's all worth it."

Fuck them.

TM

You are probably right. I say it because I think a normal human being would respond and say, yes, that's horrible stuff, but obviously here no one reacted that way, they shrugged and complained about people being mean to the people putting or supporting putting kids in internment camps, and go on their way.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You should go to Jerusalem and visit Yad Vashem. Looking at the exhibits on Europe in the 30s, you'd recognize yourself.

I've not been to Yad Vashem, but he should also visit the Documentation Center at the Nazi Party Rally Grounds in Nuremberg, which has quite a bit of detail on the rise of Hitler with rather frightening parallels to where we are now.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Adder

Mueller has up his sleeve money laundering, Russian and other foreign government payments to Cohen and evidence that Trump knew about and participated in both things. You're already on Team Nothingburger.

Where are you getting this info?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

Where are you getting this info?

The tape thing is pure speculation. The history of money laundering is from Trump, Inc (which is largely repackaging of reporting by Adam Davidson from the New Yorker and others).

The payments to Cohen from foreign governments is inference from the two missing suspicious activity reports, with me being "optimistic" that they're missing because Mueller has had them suppressed.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You should go to Jerusalem and visit Yad Vashem. Looking at the exhibits on Europe in the 30s, you'd recognize yourself.

Well, like Germany then, we do have this wee debt issue...

Seriously, however, you have no faith in the system. The country withstood the Great Depression and a Civil War. We desperately need a reappraisal of our political system (our two party, corporate-owned system more specifically). We also need to stop the parties from focusing us on wedge issues to turn us into warring factions.

So when Mueller drops the other shoe, we will see a Constitutional/Political crisis. And maybe that will be what we need to wake us from our complacency.

Watergate should have been a wake up call regarding the quality of person attracted to politics. The point didn't stick. Carter's "malaise" speech should have been a Joseph Welch chiding McCarthy moment. Instead, it was ignored. Reagan's Morning in America started a debt bomb. No one cared. Clinton's wrongful impeachment was a national disgrace. No reform followed. Iraq should have been the mother of all scandals. Instead, people disagreed over the irrefutable proof that the Administration lied. While all this took place, the middle class was hollowed out by globalization and automation, and the environment went to shit. People complained about the environment some, but no one gave a fuck about the middle class.

Then we elected a quasi-criminal con man. And we all agreed that the middle class was still getting fucked, and that was a big part of why he was elected, but no one had a real plan to fix it. He made it worse with tariffs. And now he's going to be embroiled in his very own Watergate. And what have we done in response? Splintered into warring factions, arguing about Nazis.

Trump very well may be thrown out of office. Or he may become our national Caligula. These things will happen. What will not happen is anyone offering a credible solution to or manner of addressing the hollowing out of the middle class. Allusions to Germany in the thirties are a few years too late. We're shrugging and squabbling like it's 1929.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

I'm betting that have Trump on tape talking to Cohen. There are no layers between the two and they've been laundering money together for years.

The rub may be that it's only during the transition, though, giving you opportunity to again proclaim nothingburger.

Why would it matter that it was during the transition?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Why would it matter that it was during the transition?

Because then it's not "collusion." The line will be, "so what, insiders try to sell their access all the time, it's totally normal for Washington, but regardless, it wasn't collusion because he already won!"

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Well, like Germany then, we do have this wee debt issue...

Seriously, however, you have no faith in the system. The country withstood the Great Depression and a Civil War. We desperately need a reappraisal of our political system (our two party, corporate-owned system more specifically). We also need to stop the parties from focusing us on wedge issues to turn us into warring factions.

So when Mueller drops the other shoe, we will see a Constitutional/Political crisis. And maybe that will be what we need to wake us from our complacency.

Watergate should have been a wake up call regarding the quality of person attracted to politics. The point didn't stick. Carter's "malaise" speech should have been a Joseph Welch chiding McCarthy moment. Instead, it was ignored. Reagan's Morning in America started a debt bomb. No one cared. Clinton's wrongful impeachment was a national disgrace. No reform followed. Iraq should have been the mother of all scandals. Instead, people disagreed over the irrefutable proof that the Administration lied. While all this took place, the middle class was hollowed out by globalization and automation, and the environment went to shit. People complained about the environment some, but no one gave a fuck about the middle class.

Then we elected a quasi-criminal con man. And we all agreed that the middle class was still getting fucked, and that was a big part of why he was elected, but no one had a real plan to fix it. He made it worse with tariffs. And now he's going to be embroiled in his very own Watergate. And what have we done in response? Splintered into warring factions, arguing about Nazis.

Trump very well may be thrown out of office. Or he may become our national Caligula. These things will happen. What will not happen is anyone offering a credible solution to or manner of addressing the hollowing out of the middle class. Allusions to Germany in the thirties are a few years too late. We're shrugging and squabbling like it's 1929.

It's true that our system is more resilient than Wiemar Germany's, and has been - and, looking back historically, that's actually one of the more interesting distinctions between Germany 1933 and today. If we had a more historically literate population 1920s Italy might make for an interesting comparison, but people know 1930s German much better.

As to solutions addressing the relative income stagnation that has occurred for people below the top 40% of households, there are plenty of them, but they generally include things like addressing the aging of the US population through immigration, re-unionizing the middle class, and focusing on massive rebuilding of infrastructure, including educational infrastructure, all things that the Red States viscerally oppose.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Godwin Revisited: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pol...-charge-218932

Your efforts to persuade me about how Democrats should talk to voters have been floundering, so -- brilliant move! -- you turn to an editorial in The Hill by Rich Lowry, editor of the National Review. What better source than The Hill to give messaging advice to Democrats about how to speak to voters? Who better to do it than the editor of the National Review, a man who surely cares about Democrat's priorities and wants them to do well. Genius!

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

It's true that our system is more resilient than Wiemar Germany's, and has been - and, looking back historically, that's actually one of the more interesting distinctions between Germany 1933 and today. If we had a more historically literate population 1920s Italy might make for an interesting comparison, but people know 1930s German much better.

As to solutions addressing the relative income stagnation that has occurred for people below the top 40% of households, there are plenty of them, but they generally include things like addressing the aging of the US population through immigration, re-unionizing the middle class, and focusing on massive rebuilding of infrastructure, including educational infrastructure, all things that the Red States viscerally oppose.

I think the US in 1929 works just fine because asset prices are out of whack, particularly in relation to wage trends. I know asset prices can stay irrational longer than I can stay solvent, but even in a rising rate and energy price environment? This casino has to roll over at some point.

Regarding your solutions, Trump will have been the deep red states' trial balloon. We'll now have tried it their way, and it will fail. They can no longer say their lousy lot is the fault of the govt. They'll have had their chance, implemented their policies, and learned that tariffs and xenophobia do not bring back any jobs.

If Trump's looming political crisis coincides with a recession, which it looks like it will, the result may be scary enough to compel us to the following realization:

We can no longer just accept with a shrug that the middle class will be hollowed out as a result of automation and globalization. And no -- education and retraining are not fixes for it. We need to think creatively and radically, entertaining "third rail" salves like UBI (and the more conventional ones you cited). Because otherwise, our society will be ripped apart. We will see more demagogues. We will become a gilded Brazil.

We need to stop warring - finding and blaming "others" - and start having smart conversations about the most serious, immediately threatening issues.