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Old 08-14-2017, 11:58 PM   #1591
Hank Chinaski
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I've no time for bigots. They're a mix of idiots who don't know better and evil degenerates.

But if we make Trump the focal point of opposition, we fall into a trap. He becomes a martyr to an asshole demographic, and a blame magnet for those seeking to simplify a complex problem.

The entirety of our culture is worth indicting for institutional bigotry. And I could be wrong here, but among many others, a big reason is, every time we're faced with a crisis, there's an effort to blame An Other. It's easier to hate a Mexican than to assess one's own failure to attain a skill set resilient through a downturn. It's easier to detest a welfare mother rather than honestly scrutinize one's foolish assumption he'd always have a job at some factory or corporate concern, Just Like Dad.

The real target of ire for these Left Behind sorts are the managers of global capital. The titans of industry (actually, finance) who golf at Trump's courses. These are the people who offshore, who automate, and who eliminate the positions these fungible worker bees occupied.

It needs to be stated clearly to these people. The Black, Mexican, Asian, or Jewish guy down the block isn't taking urrr job. A guy you'll never meet in Indonesia is taking urrr gig. A guy in Silicon Valley writing an app that makes your cubicle toil unnecessary is takin' urrr work. And the billionaire you voted for, and his buddies, are making a fat margin on both of you. His only carry cost is paying a compliant media and political class, and armies of advertisers and PR flunkies to keep you dumb white fucks blaming immigrants when things get really bad. It's divide and conquer. It's just that simple. And you white supremacists? You're the ultimate suckers at the table.

Or maybe I'd just go with Jello Biafra's simple approach: "Nazi punks, fuck off! Fuck off!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrABvZy8uc

From Facebook, I'm friends with a black man who lives in a small town in NC. The guy is a 20 year army vet. A professor at a small college. He runs a farm. I know him because he is one of the most popular story tellers in the country right now. He has 5 kids.

He drives past lots of homes with Confederate Battle Flags. End of the day, the people at UVA last weekend could stay safe by avoiding the rabble. GGG next week in Boston, I'm betting he'll be okay.

But my friend in Bumfuck NC, and his kids? I'm not sure I can promise him he shouldn't worry about Nazis. And I'm 100% sure he isn't looking at the threat as an opportunity to laugh at the ignorance of the Nazis.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:39 AM   #1592
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

HBO's Vice News had a remarkable piece last night on Charlottesville. It was mostly from the standpoint of interviewing the pro-Nazi supremacists.

After watching it, I came to the dismal conclusion that the Nazi thugs would view the video and say "Yes! That's who we are!"

And the people who stood up to these pigs would watch the video and say "Yes! That's who they are!"

The video is here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...1NSdc9lZnJrDdg
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:13 AM   #1593
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Trump stands for traditional hierarchies, in all sorts of ways. He is utterly uninterested in the principle of equality. His views on race are pretty clear. He is pleased to discriminate between religions. He unabashedly hires rich people because they're better. MAGA is about restoring an American where people knew their place. So is law and order. Arguably, his views on immigration are not really about removing immigrants from the country, but about imposing on them a second-class status which subordinates them to the rest of the country.
I think this credits him with thinking deeply enough to have a vision. The description you offer is deadly accurate, but it's the Bannon wing of his administration's view, not his own personal view. I still think, based on what I've seen, his personal views are non-existent. The man cares about nothing beyond winning whatever zero sum game in which he's engaged.

His criticism of the Nazis at Charlottesville was forced not because it's contrary to his personal beliefs, but because it's a capitulation. In that moment, the "Left Wing Media" was forcing him to say something. Forcing Donald Trump to do anything is beating him -- it's him losing. And he hates losing. (Dumb fucker still has no clue that, had he given a strong speech about Charlottesville a few days earlier, properly condemning Nazis, he'd be "winning" in the meta debate with the media.)

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On this view, most Republicans are good with this. A few are really committed to the principle of equality and also limited government, and struggle with Trump, but it turns out that most liked limited government because they were opposed to the federal government's ability/propensity to level traditional hierarchies and act on the promise of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Squaring equality and limited govt is a tricky thing when you expand "the promise of the Fourteenth Amendment." Affirmative Action and anti-discrimination laws are fine. But where does that "promise" end? The friction is between those who see it as a limited thing, and those who think it should apply more widely, with a govt not only redressing the effects of slavery and Jim Crow, but also using all sorts of policies to effect desired social behaviors.

The country owes a debt to those it enslaved. Nobody argues that. But under this umbrella, how much license is given for the country to tell businesses how they must act in regard to numerous other minorities who were not enslaved? We've expanded the "promise" you note to a degree a lot of Republicans feel goes far beyond what is prudent.

I don't know where the line ought to be. I don't think anyone does. And I think it changes all the time, making this subject all the more difficult.

Quote:
eta: A great many Republicans are more concerned with the zero-sum game over political power and status within this country than they are with things like growth and opportunity and growing the pie, and this is because they are acutely conscious of the status they have lost and are losing, and that their political coalition is smaller, population-wise and waning. This is why Republicans are basically OK with voter suppression -- it preserves their place.
Privately, a great many are following a simpler logic: Get as much as you can while you can, and find a way to protect it. A lot of Democrats are following the same plan. This is understandable in an environment where there's so much potential volatility lurking in so many corners. At core, it's always the lizard brain at work. And the lizard brain's only real concern is survival and lifestyle protection (Read: Money).
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:57 AM   #1594
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
It needs to be stated clearly to these people. The Black, Mexican, Asian, or Jewish guy down the block isn't taking urrr job.
You know that they hate those people regardless, right? Like, who among them is losing in competition with Jews, for example?

Quote:
A guy you'll never meet in Indonesia is taking urrr gig. A guy in Silicon Valley writing an app that makes your cubicle toil unnecessary is takin' urrr work.
Yes, let's substitute one inaccurate scapegoat for another. It will totally work.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:03 AM   #1595
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
His criticism of the Nazis at Charlottesville was forced not because it's contrary to his personal beliefs, but because it's a capitulation.
Yes and no. It was forced because he knows what he's trying to communicate. He originally condemned violence "from all sides" because he knew that his Nazi backers would hear it as a condemnation of the antifa. He waited two days to condemn them because he knew they would read it as forced and insincere. He re-tweeted a Nazi and a train running someone over this morning because he knows it will communicate his support to them. They got the message.

I don't know or care whether he does that because he personally agrees with them. He's doing to to keep their support and that's bad enough.

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The country owes a debt to those it enslaved. Nobody argues that.
Lots of people do in fact argue that.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:23 AM   #1596
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I think this credits him with thinking deeply enough to have a vision. The description you offer is deadly accurate, but it's the Bannon wing of his administration's view, not his own personal view. I still think, based on what I've seen, his personal views are non-existent. The man cares about nothing beyond winning whatever zero sum game in which he's engaged.
All of us are too quick to see him as a calculating salesman who doesn't have beliefs, when some of his beliefs are right out there. He kept hammering on the birther thing even when it made him a laughingstock. He thinks the Central Park Five should have been put to death and won't accept that they're innocent. His narcissism and insecurity play a bigger role in motivating him in the moment, but still.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:24 AM   #1597
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Yes and no. It was forced because he knows what he's trying to communicate. He originally condemned violence "from all sides" because he knew that his Nazi backers would hear it as a condemnation of the antifa. He waited two days to condemn them because he knew they would read it as forced and insincere. He re-tweeted a Nazi and a train running someone over this morning because he knows it will communicate his support to them. They got the message.

I don't know or care whether he does that because he personally agrees with them. He's doing to to keep their support and that's bad enough.
He urged everyone to respect our history. That was a white supremacist dog whistle.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:27 AM   #1598
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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He urged everyone to respect our history. That was a white supremacist dog whistle.
Yes, that too. I should have included it.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:14 PM   #1599
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrABvZy8uc

From Facebook, I'm friends with a black man who lives in a small town in NC. The guy is a 20 year army vet. A professor at a small college. He runs a farm. I know him because he is one of the most popular story tellers in the country right now. He has 5 kids.

He drives past lots of homes with Confederate Battle Flags. End of the day, the people at UVA last weekend could stay safe by avoiding the rabble. GGG next week in Boston, I'm betting he'll be okay.

But my friend in Bumfuck NC, and his kids? I'm not sure I can promise him he shouldn't worry about Nazis. And I'm 100% sure he isn't looking at the threat as an opportunity to laugh at the ignorance of the Nazis.
Hey, we should get together when you're here! Pick a day and place.

You do realize Boston is the next gathering place for the Nazis this Saturday, and that our holocaust memorial was vandalized yesterday, and there have been a couple of harassing incidents around it during the clean up?

These fuckers are feeling their oats, because they feel like they have a friend in the big very white building in DC. That's why I'd love to be around to just show the flag (the real one) when they're here, though I'm going to be out of town on vacation through the next week.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:20 PM   #1600
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post

His criticism of the Nazis at Charlottesville was forced not because it's contrary to his personal beliefs, but because it's a capitulation.
Look, there may be an element of this, but also remember that, fundamentally, he's a white asshole, a thug-wanna-be, from Queens circa 1960s. There are plenty of racists and even white supremacists in that crowd. He's one of them.
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Old 08-15-2017, 01:55 PM   #1601
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Squaring equality and limited govt is a tricky thing when you expand "the promise of the Fourteenth Amendment." Affirmative Action and anti-discrimination laws are fine. But where does that "promise" end? The friction is between those who see it as a limited thing, and those who think it should apply more widely, with a govt not only redressing the effects of slavery and Jim Crow, but also using all sorts of policies to effect desired social behaviors.

The country owes a debt to those it enslaved. Nobody argues that. But under this umbrella, how much license is given for the country to tell businesses how they must act in regard to numerous other minorities who were not enslaved? We've expanded the "promise" you note to a degree a lot of Republicans feel goes far beyond what is prudent.

I don't know where the line ought to be. I don't think anyone does. And I think it changes all the time, making this subject all the more difficult.
You are a lawyer and I am a lawyer and this is a lawyer board, so I understand your reaction, but I was trying to make a broader point about themes of equality and hierarchy, not an argument about what the Fourteenth Amendment requires. Assume the Fourteenth Amendment doesn't require that non-citizens get the same rights as citizens. (I know there is a lot of law there and I'm trying not talk about it.) Many lefties are OK treating undocumented immigrants as equal members of the community. Many righties are not. But they don't necessarily want them gone -- I think they would be happy having them around as an underclass with no rights.

And then there's law and order. In context, that phrase means that police -- who are generally white and male -- can do whatever it takes to control the behavior of black men. In context, law doesn't mean that people have rights. It means the state imposes its authority and others submit.

And also, sexual politics. Fox News shows us how that works. Women can have careers but they should wear dresses, look attractive, and remember to be available for men. Donald Trump is the extreme example of how this works.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:56 PM   #1602
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Democrats need to understand that there are a lot of people in the country who are not interested in sharing power with people who historically haven't had it, and who are willing to do things like gerrymander and suppress votes and generally do things that seem unprincipled. Not everyone is committed to equality. If you want to take on those interests, you have to persuade the people who don't bother to vote to go out and vote. You can't just think that if you are good in your heart, the existing powers that be will sit back and let you disrupt them. In a lot of respects, it's a zero-sum game and there are going to be winners and losers.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:15 PM   #1603
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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He urged everyone to respect our history. That was a white supremacist dog whistle.
"cherish" our history.

Straight from the pen of Stephen Miller (or Bannon).
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:23 PM   #1604
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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"cherish" our history.

Straight from the pen of Stephen Miller (or Bannon).
I knew I wasn't getting it right, but I also knew that going back and looking for it would just piss me off more.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:24 PM   #1605
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Look, there may be an element of this, but also remember that, fundamentally, he's a white asshole, a thug-wanna-be, from Queens circa 1960s. There are plenty of racists and even white supremacists in that crowd. He's one of them.
I forget he's from the Boroughs. I generally equate that with Staten Island more than Queens, but your point is well taken.

He's a truly bizarre fuck. You'd think a person who's met and worked with so many people from so many backgrounds would find white nationalism embarrassingly provincial.

Then again, the guy buys Brioni suits off the rack and eats his well done steaks with ketchup.
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