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Old 11-21-2017, 01:19 PM   #3091
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan View Post
Yep. There will be dozens of these before the midterms, I suspect. PIs must be really busy right now.
I think there are a lot of women coming forward of their own accord right now, and it's unfortunate to look at their stories and assume that politics are behind them.

eta: Or Russians, for that matter.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:32 PM   #3092
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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We all hate Moore, but do you seriously think the initial disclosure, and its timing, doesn't have political fingers all over it?
I think victims come forward when they see a reason to come forward. I don't think it [eta: the timing] matters much.

Quote:
The people behind the Moore disclosure want to hobble a candidate.
The victims would like to see the person who took advantage of them elected to the senate. That makes sense to me.

Quote:
The guy's a Jesus shucking pedophile. But if you think the Dems will only use this stuff out of sense of benign service, you're being a little more than naive.
I think the Dems will make a political issue out of it when relevant. I also think that there will be Dems who out their own, which we've already seen, and that this is a highly relevant difference between the parties.

ETA: I also think the political fallout is the least important part of this discussion.

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Old 11-21-2017, 01:37 PM   #3093
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I think there are a lot of women coming forward of their own accord right now, and it's unfortunate to look at their stories and assume that politics are behind them.
Agreed. You'll see in my initial post on this, I stated that a lot of brave criticisms are going to be lumped in with those of opportunists.

As much as it's important to recognize that Franken and Moore are not at all alike situations, in any regard, it's also important to separate the clearly political or cashing-in stories from those offered by women who just want to make a difference. The latter deserve some scrutiny, the former deserve to be considered exclusively on merits.

That may seem a harsh approach. But it's warranted. Because there's an even bigger accusation hurricane coming before 2018, and a whole cabal of Lee Atwaters and Gotcha Media types behind it.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:47 PM   #3094
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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I think victims come forward when they see a reason to come forward. I don't think it [eta: the timing] matters much.
Breitbart does.

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The victims would like to see the person who took advantage of them elected to the senate. That makes sense to me.
Some do. But Franken's accuser? She wants nothing. Said as much.

Quote:
I think the Dems will make a political issue out of it when relevant. I also think that there will be Dems who out their own, which we've already seen, and that this is a highly relevant difference between the parties.
Where the ugliness will erupt is between the Right Wing and the "RINOs." That's where Bannon and Co. are focused.

Quote:
ETA: I also think the political fallout is the least important part of this discussion.
It is. But the broader discussion is pretty well understood. If you don't grasp that you can't walk nude in front of an assistant (Hi Charlie!), jerk off in front of fans (Hey there, Louis!), ass grab (Lookin' at you, HW!), jack off for the pizza girl while enjoying your shrimp cocktail (Yo, Brett!)... or brutally and savagely rape people and hire ex-Mossad to terrorize them from outing you (Bad Harvey!), you probably can't read these words.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:06 PM   #3095
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
But the broader discussion is pretty well understood. If you don't grasp that you can't walk nude in front of an assistant (Hi Charlie!), jerk off in front of fans (Hey there, Louis!), ass grab (Lookin' at you, HW!), jack off for the pizza girl while enjoying your shrimp cocktail (Yo, Brett!)... or brutally and savagely rape people and hire ex-Mossad to terrorize them from outing you (Bad Harvey!), you probably can't read these words.
Re understanding, a lot of men didn't understand just how pervasive this sh*t is. But the real issue is not understanding that the behavior is wrong. Everyone pretty much understands that. Glenn Thrush would make passes at junior colleagues and then tell his co-workers that they had made passes at him. He knew exactly what he was doing. The bigger problem is a refusal to acknowledge that a lot of people -- men, mostly -- understand that behavior isn't socially acceptable and yet do it anyway because it makes them feel better. Just as Adam Serwar's big article in The Atlantic describes how whites vote for and like politicians making racial appeals, but deny that's what they're doing or why.

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The white-supremacist journal American Renaissance applauded Trump’s message. “Each political party proposes an implicit racial vision,” wrote one contributor. “A Trump Administration is a return to the America that won the West, landed on the moon, and built an economy and military that stunned the world. Non-whites can participate in this, but only if they accept the traditional (which is to say, white) norms of American culture.”

Most Trump supporters I spoke with denied that they endorsed this racial vision—even as they defended Trump’s rhetoric.

“Anytime that you disagree with someone’s point of view—if you say, ‘I don’t like Islam’—people say you’re an Islamophobe, or if you don’t like gay marriage, you’re a homophobe, and you’re hateful against the gays and Islam, or different things like that, where people are entitled to their opinion. But it doesn’t mean that you’re hateful or discriminatory,” Scott Colvin, who identified himself as a Navy veteran, told me at a Trump rally in Virginia. “Seeing how women are treated in the Islamic religion, it’s not very good, and he’s bringing a lot of light to it—that there is a lot of drugs and crime coming across the border, and that Islam does not respect women, does not respect homosexuals—and so calling it out and raising awareness to that is pretty important.”

“There’s very little evidence of Trump being openly racist or sexist,” Colvin insisted. “It wasn’t until he started running for president that all these stories started coming out. I don’t believe it, I’ve done the research.”

The plain meaning of Trumpism exists in tandem with denials of its implications; supporters and opponents alike understand that the president’s policies and rhetoric target religious and ethnic minorities, and behave accordingly. But both supporters and opponents usually stop short of calling these policies racist. It is as if there were a pothole in the middle of the street that every driver studiously avoided, but that most insisted did not exist even as they swerved around it.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:45 PM   #3096
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
As much as it's important to recognize that Franken and Moore are not at all alike situations, in any regard,
They are not at all alike if you, correctly, understand the issues to be about consent, coercion, harassment, and humiliation. They are alike if you, incorrectly but commonly, think that's all mumbo-jumbo and instead see them as being about "bad sex stuff" (i.e., all sex stuff that isn't marital, procreative sex). Bad sex stuff is bad, and all the worse because Al was married whereas Roy was single and looking for a young wife to give him babies, some of these people reason.

It's a similar dynamic to what happened with "grab them by the pussy." It wasn't the non-consensual touching that was the problem, I mean they're all lying and probably really wanted it anyway, it was lewd language, to this crowd. Because consent isn't really a thing, but potty mouth is.

I don't know how big it is, but there is a movement among wingers to argue that consent as the sole standard of acceptable sexual conduct is what creates sexual harassment and assault. Afterall, how do you find out is someone consents without asking, but the asking is itself harassment if there's a power dynamic. We need "traditional mores," the argument goes, relieve this tension. Nevermind that consent is a significant tightening of traditional mores as to what is acceptable and that traditional mores definitely did not work to prevent harassment when they were the only standard.

Basically, there's a non-trivial part of American society that thinks we are collectively having way too much sex. Yikes.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:46 PM   #3097
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
We all hate Moore, but do you seriously think the initial disclosure, and its timing, doesn't have political fingers all over it? The only evidence I see for that being entirely organic is she appeared a bit early. Parties usually don't want to pull those out of the hat until it's too late for the target to develop a defense/response that acquires some traction. Hence, "October Surprise."
Don't be this jackass. The Post researched the guy since he was going to be a Senate candidate. They are much better reporters who care about a national story more than whatever local journalists put into it. The guy is going to be a fucking Senator. If that's not the time for accusers to reveal how fucking awful he is, when is?

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The people behind the Moore disclosure
Ah. I see. You are that jackass. Nevermind.

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Old 11-21-2017, 02:47 PM   #3098
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Breitbart does.
Yes, anyone seeking to dismiss the allegations does.

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Where the ugliness will erupt is between the Right Wing and the "RINOs." That's where Bannon and Co. are focused.
More power to them.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:55 PM   #3099
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I think there are a lot of women coming forward of their own accord right now, and it's unfortunate to look at their stories and assume that politics are behind them.

eta: Or Russians, for that matter.
Yes, there are. But I also think there are a ton of settlements with confidentiality agreements in every single sector (I know of a few in my own area), and those women aren't as likely to come forward because of the confidentiality agreement. PIs/digging through financial data/court filings is the most likely way those are going to come out.

Related: what the hell did Bill O'Reilly do to generate a $32 MILLION settlement? That's not cupping someone's ass while posing for a picture.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:57 PM   #3100
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
They are not at all alike if you, correctly, understand the issues to be about consent, coercion, harassment, and humiliation. They are alike if you, incorrectly but commonly, think that's all mumbo-jumbo and instead see them as being about "bad sex stuff" (i.e., all sex stuff that isn't marital, procreative sex). Bad sex stuff is bad, and all the worse because Al was married whereas Roy was single and looking for a young wife to give him babies, some of these people reason.

It's a similar dynamic to what happened with "grab them by the pussy." It wasn't the non-consensual touching that was the problem, I mean they're all lying and probably really wanted it anyway, it was lewd language, to this crowd. Because consent isn't really a thing, but potty mouth is.

I don't know how big it is, but there is a movement among wingers to argue that consent as the sole standard of acceptable sexual conduct is what creates sexual harassment and assault. Afterall, how do you find out is someone consents without asking, but the asking is itself harassment if there's a power dynamic. We need "traditional mores," the argument goes, relieve this tension. Nevermind that consent is a significant tightening of traditional mores as to what is acceptable and that traditional mores definitely did not work to prevent harassment when they were the only standard.

Basically, there's a non-trivial part of American society that thinks we are collectively having way too much sex. Yikes.
Leading inexorably to the Pence Solution. No dinners with them, no drinks with them. The only way one can truly be sure no one's getting involuntarily grabbed by the pussy.

BTW, this line deserves applause: "Because consent isn't really a thing, but potty mouth is."
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:58 PM   #3101
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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When wasn't I?

The whole conversation started with TM asking whether Bill got criticized in the way Obama did. I said, if I had the money that the Clintons and Obamas have, I could be a lot more selective about who I work for. The Foundation was really more Bill's thing until later, no? Yes, I said both Clintons plural and Obamas plural, but I wasn't really criticizing Michelle either. Later, the anecdote I used to criticize the Foundation was from 2008, long before Hillary got involved. This post clearly about Bill, not Hillary. The reference to Hillary's critics was to your leaping to her defense.
So your worry is that a former President is raising money for a good cause, but isn't doing it in the way you'd like him to?

Get a life.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:00 PM   #3102
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Leading inexorably to the Pence Solution. No dinners with them, no drinks with them. The only way one can truly be sure no one's getting involuntarily grabbed by the pussy.

BTW, this line deserves applause: "Because consent isn't really a thing, but potty mouth is."
Yeah, I have no interest in dealing with anyone adhering to the Pence / Old Boy Club solution. My approach is to just leave these people out of the equation. Eventually, not being willing to deal with half the world on equal terms is going to limit these moron's options.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:01 PM   #3103
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan View Post
Related: what the hell did Bill O'Reilly do to generate a $32 MILLION settlement? That's not cupping someone's ass while posing for a picture.
This, of course, is the $64,000 question.

Times 500.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:39 PM   #3104
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Re: Here comes the waterfall...

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Re understanding, a lot of men didn't understand just how pervasive this sh*t is. But the real issue is not understanding that the behavior is wrong. Everyone pretty much understands that. Glenn Thrush would make passes at junior colleagues and then tell his co-workers that they had made passes at him. He knew exactly what he was doing. The bigger problem is a refusal to acknowledge that a lot of people -- men, mostly -- understand that behavior isn't socially acceptable and yet do it anyway because it makes them feel better. Just as Adam Serwar's big article in The Atlantic describes how whites vote for and like politicians making racial appeals, but deny that's what they're doing or why.
There was more than a little irony in my last paragraph there. I get your point. I had no idea it's this pervasive, and I've been involved in settling a number of these claims.

Occam would suggest a good bit of this is hormones taking over the brain of males with time on their hands and off the chart egos. It'd be analytical malpractice to investigate this as a purely social and entirely non-biological situation. It's not surprising to hear that Weinstein was generally abusive to both sexes in addition to being a rapist. And as one thinks back on the guys you've known who've engaged in harassment, three groups tend to appear:

1. Selfish geeks who cannot natively attract women (a lot of the Hollywood guys so far);
2. Douchebags;
3. Violent or deviant assholes (the kinds of guys who'd beat people up in high school).

Examples of A: Ratner, NYTimes guy, C.K.
Examples of B: Pivin, Franken, Besh
Examples of C: Weinstein, Toback
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:48 PM   #3105
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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So your worry is that a former President is raising money for a good cause, but isn't doing it in the way you'd like him to?
If you think that captures what I've said, then we can just stop there.
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