LawTalkers  

Go Back   LawTalkers > General Discussion > Politics

» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
» Online Users: 44
0 members and 44 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 4,499, 10-26-2015 at 07:55 AM.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-2018, 06:21 PM   #4561
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 18,778
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Words. Lots of Words.
One of my Trump relatives posted a video purportedly from Sarah Saunders asking people to rally behind the cause of freeing someone convicted of killing a Muslim refugee who raped his 7 year old sister.

Doesn't that kind of say everything we need to say about "conservatives" today?
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:22 PM   #4562
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 84,003
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Maybe you and he are talking about different voters. I don't see how you can decide that he is actually talking about a subset of "right wingers" when he specifically says that he talked to "dozens of Trump supporters". Maybe you think he's just lying about that? Um, no.

Or maybe you are he both think you're talking about the same people but actually are talking about different people. Possible. He reports on talking to people in different states and (from what I can tell) different backgrounds. You seem to have focused on white-collar types in the suburbs of Philadelphia. So maybe it's right that you don't have a broad enough perspective.

Or maybe you're both basically talking about the same people and he found a way to get them to discuss what they're thinking in a way you haven't. It's always socially acceptable to say that you're for lower taxes. Serwer writes:



Sounds like you and he are describing the same people, really. You are just more inclined to accept their explanation at face value.

Also from Serwer's article:



In other words, voters' racial attitudes better explain -- statistically -- their support for Trump than their economic circumstances.

eta: How on Earth can you go from acknowledging Burke as the source of modern conservatism to pretending that conservatism as we now see it is about a desire to pay lower taxes? It's like you can explain how a transmission works, but then insist that the wiper control makes the car go.
How does one know what voters with racist views think? Exit polling? Phone surveys, "do you think Sharia law is in place in some cities in Michigan?... You do? Can we talk about how you voted in the presidential election?"
__________________
alumnus of beating thurgreed in arguments
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:31 PM   #4563
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 30,155
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
How does one know what voters with racist views think? Exit polling? Phone surveys, "do you think Sharia law is in place in some cities in Michigan?... You do? Can we talk about how you voted in the presidential election?"
How does one know what anyone thinks? People can't even agree what racism is.
__________________
“Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof”
- John Kenneth Galbraith
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 07:38 PM   #4564
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 84,003
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
How does one know what anyone thinks? People can't even agree what racism is.
Well I openly discuss my feeling here, not elsewhere, but here. But if some guy is asking randoms, I would expect admitting racist feelings actually means the problem (assuming one sees that as a problem) is worse, as a high percentage of people with the feeling might like to keep their ugly little secret?
__________________
alumnus of beating thurgreed in arguments

Last edited by Hank Chinaski; 02-12-2018 at 07:45 PM..
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:33 PM   #4565
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 22,927
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Of course. Name an institution.

Home ownership: Government-lead institutional racist approach to keeping blacks from owning homes, restricting them to certain areas, driving down their home prices and supporting lenders who adopted those policies.

Policing and justice system and penal system: Too obvious to state. War on drugs, removal of right to vote, unfair sentencing, police not policed, DAs not interested in justice,

Segregation: First De jure, now de facto

Education: Born out of segregation, but designing a funding system for public education based on immediate and cleverly-drawn districts, makes sure white retain an advantage indefinitely. I won't preach about how inflated GPAs and advanced courses that are offered to the privileged serve a similar function when it comes to college admissions.

Voting: The whole goal of Republicans, conservatives, anyone on the right is to restrict voting and outright suppress it in dozens and dozens of ways

Employment: Uh, 'nuff said.

Any others? I'd be happy to discuss.
The system is not rigged to discriminate against Blacks. Parts of it are, and in certain geographic areas, far more so than others. And bigots infect the systems you cite as much as they infect any other system.

But I can't agree that there is an active "system" at work the primary goal of which is to advantage any group over another.

What you are talking about are persistent vestiges of a system that are damn hard to eradicate. That's a much different statement than the accusation that the system is still designed to effect racist ends.

BUT, huge caveat here: The War on Blacks (there's no flippancy intended there; that's factual) and our justice system, which grossly emphasizes broken windows crime over white collar crime, are designed and implemented to jail and marginalize Black people -- even more so, poor Black people (and poor people generally). These are systems that remain indefensible, and only exist to effect racist aims.

Quote:
She surely wouldn't go in the exact opposite direction of where we were headed with Obama. Sessions has done incredible damage (stepping away from already established settlement agreements with police departments, restarting the war on drugs, fully embracing civil forfeiture, returning to junk-science when it comes to prosecutions (and abandoning science generally when it comes to criminal prosecutions), and jumping back in with both feet to supporting private prisons, among other things). Let's not even talk about the bullshit Trump talks and tweets about the state of crime and what's happening in inner cities.
My views of Sessions are well known here. If I'd the cure for cancer and he was Stage 4, I'd ignore him. I did not expect Trump to seriously use the racist Nixon "law n' order" shit if he someone hit the lottery and actually got elected. I made a mistake in that assumption. And, I was not aware of his Central Park 5 position when I voted.

Quote:
When you say, "nobody cares," who the hell are you talking about? White people? Right wing white people? Republicans? The rich? Because there are millions of people who care about this. Think about how many people are jailed (a lot on non-violent drug charges) and then think about how many family members and friends they have. Think about the number of people who fear the justice system screwing them over on a bullshit arrest. What are you talking about?
I've actually dealt with this issue up close. I advocated for humane treatment of prisoners in a policy situation where, for reasons I won't get into here, I had some say. The public is very anti-prisoner. Very pro-tough-on-crime. Both D and R. They don't give a fuck about these people. The aim is to spend minimal dollars on rehabilitating people in jail, and taking a cruel position actually garners one votes.

No one with any power to do something about justice reform gives a fuck because politicians don't make it an issue, as it will make them look weak, and ex-cons have no say. They're subhumans to the average voter. YMMV. But I learned this, the hard way.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:38 PM   #4566
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 22,927
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post

eta: How on Earth can you go from acknowledging Burke as the source of modern conservatism to pretending that conservatism as we now see it is about a desire to pay lower taxes? It's like you can explain how a transmission works, but then insist that the wiper control makes the car go.
In half a dozen words or less. "It's a big tent. Cognitive dissonance." Next?
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 10:51 PM   #4567
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 22,927
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
How does one know what anyone thinks? People can't even agree what racism is.
This is a third rail. I think anti-Muslim nonsense is xenophobia. Racism here is racism against African Americans.

This is a very unpopular position among white liberals.

I hold to it. Racism, here, is a unique thing. It should not be diluted to include religious persecution.

Mel Gibson's rant about Jews was not racism. It was xenophobia, religious hatred, and cultural bigotry. His later rant about Blacks was racism.

Given that scientifically, the term "racism" as applied to anyone is inaccurate, I'd like to retire it. Except that in context, here, it now stands for hatred of African Americans. In this regard, it should be preserved. And it should describe, at least here, mostly, if not entirely, a phenomenon where people discriminate against and hate others based on African genetic background. (Which heritage of course includes all of us... but that's just "science' again, and you get the point.)

I've never been comfortable with anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic behavior being lumped into the category of racism. It's lazy and strikes me as an attempt to opportunistically expand the term.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

Last edited by sebastian_dangerfield; 02-12-2018 at 11:17 PM..
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:06 PM   #4568
Pretty Little Flower
Moderator
 
Pretty Little Flower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Flower
Posts: 7,919
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
This is a third rail. I think anti-Muslim nonsense is xenophobia. Racism is racism against African Americans.

This is a very unpopular position among white liberals.

I hold to it. Racism, here, is a unique thing. It should not be diluted to include religious persecution.

Mel Gibson's rant about Jews was not racism. It was xenophobia, religious hatred, and cultural bigotry. His later rant about Blacks was racism.

Given that scientifically, the term "racism" as applied to anyone is inaccurate, I'd like to retire it. Except that in context, here, it now stands for hatred of African Americans. In this regard, it should be preserved. And it should describe, at least here, mostly, if not entirely, a phenomenon where people discriminate against and hate others based on African genetic background. (Which of course, includes all of us, but you get the point.)

I've never been comfortable with anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic behavior being lumped into the category of racism. It's lazy and strikes me as an attempt to opportunistically expand the term.
You should just stop typing now.
__________________
Minister of New New Super Heavy Funk.

I am not sorry.
Pretty Little Flower is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:10 PM   #4569
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 22,927
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Yes, but he wasn't an apologist for the ancient regime:



link
This defines all political parties in the US:

"What conservatism is, then, is a politics of privilege for a mass democratic age."

Conservatism is reactionary. Progressive politics is insurgent. In either case, you've elites, despite their endless profuse denials of that status, asserting "We speak for the common man, whose best interests we serve."

Yin/Yang.

Trump is an interloper only to the extent he bought himself the seat selling a populist narrative. But judged by policy, rather than Tweets, he seems garden variety conservative for the moment.

The Sam Harris/Scott Adams podcast on Trump is brilliant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReKIJvOJDrs It's long, and Adams might be truly amoral, but it unpacks everything about Trump that people argue about endlessly. (I love Harris, as he has a "no gotcha questions" rule. Makes interviews and debates so much more candid.)
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

Last edited by sebastian_dangerfield; 02-13-2018 at 12:02 AM..
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:12 PM   #4570
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 22,927
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower View Post
You should just stop typing now.
You haven't had anything useful to say since 2005. Tell me the same joke again, canned wit.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

Last edited by sebastian_dangerfield; 02-12-2018 at 11:14 PM..
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:18 PM   #4571
Pretty Little Flower
Moderator
 
Pretty Little Flower's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Flower
Posts: 7,919
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
You haven't had anything useful to say since 2005. Tell me the same joke again, canned wit.
You seem angry.
__________________
Minister of New New Super Heavy Funk.

I am not sorry.
Pretty Little Flower is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:30 PM   #4572
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 22,927
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower View Post
You seem angry.
Don't bore me.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:35 PM   #4573
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 84,003
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
This is a third rail. I think anti-Muslim nonsense is xenophobia. Racism here is racism against African Americans.

This is a very unpopular position among white liberals.

I hold to it. Racism, here, is a unique thing. It should not be diluted to include religious persecution.

Mel Gibson's rant about Jews was not racism. It was xenophobia, religious hatred, and cultural bigotry. His later rant about Blacks was racism.

Given that scientifically, the term "racism" as applied to anyone is inaccurate, I'd like to retire it. Except that in context, here, it now stands for hatred of African Americans. In this regard, it should be preserved. And it should describe, at least here, mostly, if not entirely, a phenomenon where people discriminate against and hate others based on African genetic background. (Which heritage of course includes all of us... but that's just "science' again, and you get the point.)

I've never been comfortable with anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic behavior being lumped into the category of racism. It's lazy and strikes me as an attempt to opportunistically expand the term.
Do you see a difference in wrong between racism against blacks, and xenophobia (?) ala Mel Gibson against Jews? I get the Jewish people have overcome more of the original hate than blacks, but as to the haters, do we have to modify our dislike based upon that factor?
__________________
alumnus of beating thurgreed in arguments
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:37 PM   #4574
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 84,003
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Don't bore me.
You realize with this as the standard Flower cannot post anymore. Adder must retire too. And Ty? Well.
__________________
alumnus of beating thurgreed in arguments
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 11:49 PM   #4575
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 22,927
Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Do you see a difference in wrong between racism against blacks, and xenophobia (?) ala Mel Gibson against Jews? I get the Jewish people have overcome more of the original hate than blacks, but as to the haters, do we have to modify our dislike based upon that factor?
It's all equally wrong. But discrimination against Blacks is a culturally unique thing in this nation. Here, "racism" has a special context.

Some asshole claiming Muslims are subhumans is a religious bigot.

These distinctions aren't trivial. The nation has a duty to undo the persistent impacts of racism. It also has a duty not to allow xenophobia to take hold against Muslims. But the former, I'd say, is a much heavier lift.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:20 AM.