We are all Slave now.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I hate the whole concept of "groups." Recall, I'm the one coming to this critical of identity politics.

But that's an aside. We agree that a "group" (since we must lump individuals together for reasons I'm still not certain of) can be responsible for certain of its disadvantages.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this because I don't understand what you mean by some of the words you keep using. In particular, I don't understand how a "group" can have "responsibility." If you want to make some argument about what that means, go for it, and I'll respond. If you want to make broad statements and ask me whether I categorically disagreeing, I'll repeat: Maybe there's a counter-example, so I'm not going to rule it out. That's not the same as agreeing with you.

And the part of what you've said that is utterly incoherent (and which I keep asking you to explain, to no avail) is that it's somehow possible to "assess" this putative responsibility with "science".

I agree it'd be difficult as all hell.

No, we don't agree. I said it's nonsense. Swimming to Hawaii would be difficult as hell. Swimming up Mt Everest is nonsense.

But the framework for such an analysis (determining when certain disadvantages are more or entirely attributable to behaviors of the group rather than outside oppressive forces) exists. The notions of superseding cause, and comparative negligence, are not that complicated.

Please see my post in response to Adder. Tort law concepts cannot be used to assess whether tort law itself is unfair.

The difference is oppression either ends, as in the case of Nazi persecution, or it decreases over time, as in the case of bigotry and racism. (Please don't argue "It has not!" I'm measuring relative to the past.) At a certain point following the end of the oppression or the decrease of the oppression to a certain level, the victims begin to bear some personal responsibility for circumstances. (Again, I hate this analysis, as personal responsibility is an concept focused on individuals, not groups [another of many reasons the concept of identity politics is built on sand]). If you disagree with that point, necessarily, you support the following: "The victims of oppression, even when that oppression ends or decreases, never again share responsibility for their circumstances." That cannot be true, of course.

Let's set aside the group aspect, which is difficult enough, and focus on your responsibility concept.

During World War II, Mr. X, a Gypsy in Tirana, Albania, bought a ticket to sail on a boat from Tirana to Lisbon, where he would be beyond the reach of the Nazis. The day before he was to leave, he went to visit his cousin in the mountains to say goodbye. I say his cousin, although they were not blood relatives, because Mr. X shared a bond with him that other Romany would understand though we would not. That evening, as he walked back to Tirana, he heard horses coming and hid in some bushes, worried (perhaps unreasonably) that local villagers, not fond of Romany, would rob him or worse. In the dark he stepped on his bag, and without realizing it he broke his alarm clock. It was a cheap clock, the best he could afford after a winter without much work, and maybe it had broken before he stepped on his bag -- who is to say? When the horses had passed out of earshot, Mr. X resumed his walk, but between drinking with his cousin and the long walk and having to hide in the bushes it was quite late when he got home. The next morning, his broken alarm clock did not go off, and he overslept, missing the boat to Lisbon. Not too long after that, the militia detained him and turned him over to the Germans, who put him on a train to a concentration camp, where he later died.

Multiple choice

1. Which is true?
a) Mr. X bears no responsibility for his plight because the Nazis killed him.
b) Mr. X bears some responsibility for his plight.

2. If your answer is a), which is true?
a) Mr. X never bore any responsibility for his plight because eventually the Nazis killed him
b) Mr. X bore some responsibility for his plight because he was oppressed by non-Romany Albanians who were not Nazis and who did not kill him, even though he was later killed by German Nazis.
c) Mr. X bore some responsibility for his plight at points before the Nazis killed him, but then his responsibility for his plight disappeared because the Nazis killed him.

3. If your answer to 2. was c), at what point did Mr. X's responsibility for his plight end?
a) When he heard the horses on the road and feared for his safety.
b) When the militia seized him.
c) When the Germans put him on a train.
d) When he got to the concentration camp.
e) When he was killed.

4. If your answer to 1 was b), apportion responsibility for Mr. X's plight among the following groups:
a) Romany __%
b) Albanians who live in the mountains __%
c) Albanians who live in the city __%
d) Albanians who make shoddy clocks __%
e).Albanians who join militias __%
f) Germans __%
g) Other __%
All percentages must add up to 100%

....[A] clinical/scientific/anthropological assessment of "group responsibility" can be performed.

Presumably, to get the group score, you just average up all of the aggregate scores of the life histories of everyone in that group, correct? That's a pretty simple analysis. Except that I really only picked a few facts from Mr. X's life -- maybe I need to develop his story a little more. And then all the other Romany, in Albania and elsewhere. Once that's done, we can move on to this country, yes?

Extra-Credit Question! Please identify a good one that someone has done. Just one, that you are willing to stand by as an example that such a thing is possible. I know that you will be all tired out after answering my little quiz, so I suspect you'll pass on answering this question, but it would help your final grade.