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Old 12-08-2017, 01:31 PM   #3316
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Stop it. You're doing as much to define what amounts to what is serious and what isn't as everyone else. If Franken was a serial massager of shoulders, should he be fired? Is that for you to say?

You can't possibly be saying that men have to cede all right to express an opinion as to what amounts to harassment and what doesn't. Jesus.

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There are some pretty creepy serial massagers out there. I'm just saying.

Damn this conversation could use some women. Anyone lurking about.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:32 PM   #3317
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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It's not subjective. I'd say TM was being reasonable. To go to HR over such a thing would be unreasonable. It would be immature. That's why I characterized his response as "sensible."

Objectively, his response matched the behavior. One aberrant act should not be met with a complaint to HR.
Now we are going to disagree.

It didn't bother me. Because it didn't bother me, me making a federal case of it seems unreasonable, yes.

If I had grabbed someone's genitals (not hers because I don't think she would have minded) and that person freaked the fuck out and reported me, that is most definitely a reasonable response. I brought it up because I'm not sure that she should be ineligible to hold office 10 years later.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
And, that the act was actionable, which I agree it was, and that HR would have taken action, does not mean such a response would be reasonable. HR is a risk minimization department in these cases. Corporations make financial decisions. What one can complain and acquire redress for in a corporate setting resembles what is "reasonable" about as much as a Hyundia does a Bentley.
HR has two roles in these situations. One is certainly risk minimization. The other is establishing a work environment in which employees feel safe and comfortable. If the only focus is the former, that's a problem.

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Old 12-08-2017, 01:32 PM   #3318
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
you need to start getting invited to different cocktail parties.
Really. Invite the guy to one of your story telling gigs. He needs to get out.
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Old 12-08-2017, 01:34 PM   #3319
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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There are and always will be objective standards. If there are no objective standards for what qualifies as harassment, almost anything can be harassment. Are we really having this discussion? Seriously?
Of course there are objective standards. But those standards start farther down the scale of severe sexual harassment. It's the stuff that is on the edges and are lower on the scale where the real problems exist in figuring out how to prevent it and what the appropriate punishment is when it occurs.

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Old 12-08-2017, 01:58 PM   #3320
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Here's the thing, the biggest issue the Dems have right now is that the prez bragged about grabbing pussy, and Alabama is running a guy who got banned from malls, and no R's seem to care. We are less than a year away from midterm elections. Anything that blurs the line is a big problem. Of course it is unfair that he quit and Trump is still in office and this Moore will likely win election, but the D's need to win in contested places, lots of them, and cannot have a major bright line issue get less bright.
I am with you up to the part after the "cannot". Maybe you're right, but maybe that's only this week's conventional wisdom. Maybe in October Sen. Moore (R. - Ala.) will be saying controversial, pig-headed things that get national play and Sen. Franken (D. - Minn.) will be laying low and not saying anything and the major bright line will be pretty damn bright. Because while Franken is all of the headlines this week, next week it will be something else, and the following week something else still, and so on.

On the other hand, maybe Franken should take some comfort that he gets to lost his seat in a way that feels like a real step forward for a lot of women, even if it sucks for him. And whatever he did, he probably understands better that he shouldn't have done it.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:04 PM   #3321
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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The issues that will win the day are:

1. The GOP just fucked the middle class with a shitty tax bill;
2. Wages are still stagnating (see today's jobs report);
3. The GOP is defunding the ACA; and,
4. Inequality is accelerating under GOP policies.
You are just like Hillary Clinton -- all you offer is complaining about the Republicans, with no positive, concrete agenda to tell voters how you will make their lives better. You just don't learn.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:06 PM   #3322
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I know you've paid attention to how the media handles these things. We don't control that.
If you can't figure out how to work the media, why would a voter trust you with the country? Trump calls the news he doesn't like "fake," he lies with impunity, and on and on. Democrats worry that if Al Franken hangs around someone in the media might say something bad about them. If you have to pick one of the two to be the alpha male, who are you going to pick?
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:23 PM   #3323
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Just checking: The deal announced today means that Britain will pay tens of billions of dollars in order to continue to be subject to EU customs rules, but without a continuing role in deciding what those rules are, yes?
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:23 PM   #3324
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
There are some pretty creepy serial massagers out there. I'm just saying.
Yep. We had one who massaged all genders.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:31 PM   #3325
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You are trying to avoid a substantive conversation about the underlying behavior
As I said, I don't think a substantive conversation among this group of people about this topic has much value.

Taking the allegations as true, he forced a more intimate than wanted kiss on one women, took a demeaning picture while she was a sleep in which he appears to be at least slightly touching her, groped 5-6 (not sure I've kept up with the perfect count) more at photo ops and tried to coerce a kiss out of a congressional staffer before taking office. None of that is acceptable behavior. If it were in a workplace, collectively it would absolutely be a fireable offense. All of it was arguably in a workplace, although much of it was not in his current workplace, so that's arguably toward less "punishment."

But he's not a regular employee, he's an elected official. That both gives him more leeway in the sense that actually firing him is quite hard and less in the sense that losing the confidence of his constituents, or as he himself put it, his ability to be an effective senator to represent them, is a problem above and beyond any legal or ethical exposure.

I'm sad he's gone. He was a very good senator and someone I was proud represented me. I also think things reached a point where he had to go for political reasons already stated.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:37 PM   #3326
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
There are and always will be objective standards. If there are no objective standards for what qualifies as harassment, almost anything can be harassment. Are we really having this discussion? Seriously?
You sent a colleague a text message with an explicit image. Harassment? You can't say. Depends on other context, the most important of which is whether that colleague was happy to receive it or not.

You got a blowie from a copy room messenger under your desk. Harassment? Signs point to it, but you can't say for sure unless you know whether the messenger felt and feels like a willing participant (leaving aside the rest of the office for whom it could be a factor in a hostile work environment.

The the very same objective conduct is harassment or not depending on how it is received. This is what harassment means.

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I'm putting myself in the head of a typical HR person. CYA, CYA, CYA...
Signing up for a gender discrimination suit is a really poor way to CYA.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:40 PM   #3327
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
On the other hand, maybe Franken should take some comfort that he gets to lost his seat in a way that feels like a real step forward for a lot of women, even if it sucks for him.
I thought he expressed that sentiment in his speech yesterday.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:42 PM   #3328
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Democrats worry that if Al Franken hangs around someone in the media might say something bad about them.
No, Democrats worry that talking about Al sucks up all of the air time.
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Old 12-08-2017, 02:59 PM   #3329
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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As I said, I don't think a substantive conversation among this group of people about this topic has much value.
Is this really how your live your life? You only discuss issues relating to race and what is and isn't racist with blacks and Latinos? LGBT issues can only be discussed by that community? No one outside of those communities is capable of adding meaningfully to any topic that those communities confront? That's a strange existence.

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Taking the allegations as true, he forced a more intimate than wanted kiss on one women, took a demeaning picture while she was a sleep in which he appears to be at least slightly touching her, groped 5-6 (not sure I've kept up with the perfect count) more at photo ops and tried to coerce a kiss out of a congressional staffer before taking office. None of that is acceptable behavior. If it were in a workplace, collectively it would absolutely be a fireable offense. All of it was arguably in a workplace, although much of it was not in his current workplace, so that's arguably toward less "punishment."
We discussed the kiss and the photo. I think we disagree on that one. This wouldn't get him fired anywhere.

The allegations of groping, if true, are very concerning. He wanted an investigation w/r/t these because I think he wanted to fight some or all of them. He wanted the information to come out and the opportunity to defend himself.

The allegation about the kiss is that he tried to kiss someone and she avoided the kiss. Okay. Not cool. But something that should keep him from holding office forever (even when combined with everything else)? I don't bloody think so.

But the key words in your paragraph are, "if true." There needs to be some kind of balance between believing the accusers automatically and completely shutting them down. I think accusations should always be taken seriously. But we shouldn't be rushing to label this guy as a serial harasser and discarding him just because we're in a climate in which we're finally taking this stuff seriously.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
But he's not a regular employee, he's an elected official. That both gives him more leeway in the sense that actually firing him is quite hard and less in the sense that losing the confidence of his constituents, or as he himself put it, his ability to be an effective senator to represent them, is a problem above and beyond any legal or ethical exposure.
And this is where the argument lies. I don't think his actions have put him in a situation in which he can't be an effective senator or who has lost the confidence of his constituents. I'm not in MN, so maybe I don't have an accurate read on constituents not named Adder. But the calls for him to step down seem to be coming from lots of other people.

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I'm sad he's gone. He was a very good senator and someone I was proud represented me. I also think things reached a point where he had to go for political reasons already stated.
Well that's where we disagree. And I suppose that's as good a place as any to end this one.



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Old 12-08-2017, 03:19 PM   #3330
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Now we are going to disagree.

It didn't bother me. Because it didn't bother me, me making a federal case of it seems unreasonable, yes.

If I had grabbed someone's genitals (not hers because I don't think she would have minded) and that person freaked the fuck out and reported me, that is most definitely a reasonable response. I brought it up because I'm not sure that she should be ineligible to hold office 10 years later.

HR has two roles in these situations. One is certainly risk minimization. The other is establishing a work environment in which employees feel safe and comfortable. If the only focus is the former, that's a problem.

TM
There should be certain objective thresholds that all subjective claims must meet.

Like, say, the behavior must be targeted toward or intentionally exposed to the victim. A person should not be subject to a harassment claim because someone saw him checking out sexts on his iPhone, or walked in his office while he was looking at the SI swimsuit gallery linked on Yahoo.

I almost had this happen once. I had a naughty photo open on my phone (as we've all had). I get a call while walking into the office. I forget to close out that photo after finishing the call. An assistant in the office (quite a gamer, I might add... exactly the sort who'd bring any claim available for $$$) asked me for a number. I say "I have it." I open the phone to get this lawyer's # within her plane of vision. Up comes the naughty image.

Because, I can only assume, the universe owed me favor at that point, she was momentarily looking elsewhere. I immediately (with cat-like reflexes the speed of which I'd never known) turn the phone inward and move away.

I would never harass anyone in a million years. This person: twelve million. And yet, through nothing but a comedy of errors, I'd have been nailed for that. Or worse, effectively blackmailed.

And some officious sort would probably agree that was harassment of a sort. Just because it was technically reportable.

So, objectively, at a minimum, I'd say harassment must require intent.
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