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Old 02-16-2018, 04:13 PM   #4666
ferrets_bueller
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Please read a bit more carefully. At no time did I claim Ms. Warren asserted Indian heritage to get a scholarship. In a separate paragraph, I used what is clearly labeled "For example", a hypo about a scholarship.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:13 PM   #4667
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
And I'm not giving my DNA away to any shady company to substantiate my German and Irish ancestry either.
Absolutely not, and the veracity of those tests are questionable, especially when it comes to groups that aren't already in their data bases. Different companies have different results, and none of them are terribly accurate.

There are some amateur historians in the family (and a professional archivist, but she's only looked at WWII letters) and because of those efforts, we have a generally good idea of who when and where for at least the Texican branch of it. Everyone else we have to sort of guess. For example, I have no idea if the "Poland" as described in the teens when that particular strand got off a boat is the same Poland as described today. And who the fuck knows about where exactly the Italian side came from? It wasn't Italy as we know it when they came over.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:16 PM   #4668
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller View Post
Please read a bit more carefully. At no time did I claim Ms. Warren asserted Indian heritage to get a scholarship. In a separate paragraph, I used what is clearly labeled "For example", a hypo about a scholarship.
Will do. My mistake. And I will agree to read more carefully if, after claiming you need evidence that she did not use a lie about her heritage to further her career, you agree to actually consider the evidence presented to you that she did not.

TM
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:18 PM   #4669
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller View Post
If she can put the allegation that she asserted minority status to gain a career advantage to rest, she'd be better off.
But she can't. Just like Obama can't. Nothing she does will cause those who want to slander her with this from doing so.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:20 PM   #4670
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Boy, sure is a good thing that none of us said there was nothing to this Russia stuff, right?
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:21 PM   #4671
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You keep saying this. But there is absolutely no evidence that she gained a career advantage. In fact, the claims are so specious that you originally asserted that she did it to get a scholarship, not a job.

If it is a fact that she has Native American heritage, it is a fucking crime that Scott Walker implied that (i) she lied about it and (ii) she lied about it to gain a career advantage. Politically, it's the perfect claim because it plays on all those white fears that minorities are getting all these advantages that are denied to them. Ask yourself why the claim sticks with you so much. But do it in private.

In short, anyone can make up whatever they like about me. I shouldn't have to prove that whatever they made up is completely false. And since she defeated Walker without having to do so, I think that's a good thing. The fact that you keep asserting that the liar-in-chief's constant racist harassment needs to be addressed by her is somewhat disturbing. He's the only asshole who is making this an issue. And he's an established, inveterate liar and bully. That should be enough.

TM
Friendly point of order: Scott Brown.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:25 PM   #4672
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Friendly point of order: Scott Brown.
There I go being careless again. (And to be fair to Brown, he's not in the same class of assholes as Walker.)

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Old 02-16-2018, 04:33 PM   #4673
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Warren clearly knew she was on all of those lists as a minority candidate for positions. If her name was there, she should have double damn well made sure she fit the bill.

Unfair hypo posited for effect: How would you feel if Rachel Dolezal had obtained a position based upon her minority status?

By the way, ladies and gents, I LIKE her. (Warren, not Dolezal.) Haven't I made that clear? I've met her several times, we share an academic discipline, and for all its structural flaws the CFPB does fine work. But she'll be faced with this issue on the national stage, and ignoring it won't help. Why should she care what I think? Because if she doesn't clear up this matter, it will hound her on the national stage. Anyone who disagrees that this will do her quantum damage is not being realistic.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:36 PM   #4674
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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There I go being careless again. (And to be fair to Brown, he's not in the same class of assholes as Walker.)

TM
Nice legislator who lied about his status as a Vietnam Vet: Senator Blumenthal. I won't forgive him that until he tattoos "I was not a Vietnam Veteran" on hos forehead.
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Old 02-16-2018, 04:48 PM   #4675
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Warren clearly knew she was on all of those lists as a minority candidate for positions. If her name was there, she should have double damn well made sure she fit the bill.
What the fuck does this mean? If it's established in her family that they have Native American ancestors, she should question that before telling people? She should have gotten a DNA test back then to confirm?

Again, if she used it to her benefit, first prove that, and then we can talk about how exactly she should have confirmed to herself and the school that it was true beyond all doubt.

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Unfair hypo posited for effect: How would you feel if Rachel Dolezal had obtained a position based upon her minority status?
This is not a hypothetical. This is exactly what she did. The hypo becomes unfair because (i) Dolezal is not black, (ii) she had an intricate and made up story about her father and a bunch of other shit, and (iii) she's absolutely crazy.

But the analysis is the same. Did you use race to your benefit to get the job? If you did, show me your racial credentials.

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Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller View Post
By the way, ladies and gents, I LIKE her. (Warren, not Dolezal.) Haven't I made that clear? I've met her several times, we share an academic discipline, and for all its structural flaws the CFPB does fine work. But she'll be faced with this issue on the national stage, and ignoring it won't help. Why should she care what I think? Because if she doesn't clear up this matter, it will hound her on the national stage. Anyone who disagrees that this will do her quantum damage is not being realistic.
You are intentionally ignoring everything everyone is saying to you. Read carefully. It does not matter what she does. This will remain an issue. It plays on some awfully politically-bankable issues that white people have and assholes will continue to play on those insecurities.

Do you think for a second there were people out there who were like, "You know, I'm not quite sure that Obama isn't a secret Muslim from Kenya," who completely dropped it when he produced his birth certificate?

Completely fair hypothetical: Do you think Cruz needs to prove that his father didn't murder JFK if he runs for office in 2024?

TM

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Old 02-16-2018, 04:55 PM   #4676
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Nice legislator who lied about his status as a Vietnam Vet: Senator Blumenthal. I won't forgive him that until he tattoos "I was not a Vietnam Veteran" on hos forehead.
?

This is not relevant because he actually was not a Vietnam Vet. I can list a bunch of shit politicians actually lied about that should keep them from holding office. Contrast that with me accusing a bunch of politicians of shit I think is true and then turn around and tell them to prove that none of it is.

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Old 02-16-2018, 05:03 PM   #4677
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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What the fuck does this mean? If it's established in her family that they have Native American ancestors, she should question that before telling people? She should have gotten a DNA test back then to confirm?

Again, if she used it to her benefit, first prove that, and then we can talk about how exactly she should have confirmed to herself and the school that it was true beyond all doubt.

This is not a hypothetical. This is exactly what she did. The hypo becomes unfair because (i) Dolezal is not black, (ii) she had an intricate and made up story about her father and a bunch of other shit, and (iii) she's absolutely crazy.

But the analysis is the same. Did you use race to your benefit to get the job? If you did, show me your racial credentials.

You are intentionally ignoring everything everyone is saying to you. Read carefully. It does not matter what she does. This will remain an issue. It plays on some awfully politically-bankable issues that white people have and assholes will continue to play on those insecurities.

Do you think for a second there were people out there who were like, "You know, I'm not quite sure that Obama isn't a secret Muslim from Kenya," who completely dropped it when he produced his birth certificate?

Completely fair hypothetical: Do you think Cruz needs to prove that his father didn't murder JFK if he runs for office in 2024?

TM
I disagree, it is not a completely fair hypo, since you have asked Cruz to prove a negative. What Cruz's father should have done is sued Trump for slander.

Best political example is Lyndon Johnson who accused an opponent for a Texas legislative position of having sex with barnyard animals. When told it was utterly untrue, Johnson said "I know, but I'd sure like to hear him deny it."
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Old 02-16-2018, 05:09 PM   #4678
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I disagree, it is not a completely fair hypo, since you have asked Cruz to prove a negative. What Cruz's father should have done is sued Trump for slander.

Best political example is Lyndon Johnson who accused an opponent for a Texas legislative position of having sex with barnyard animals. When told it was utterly untrue, Johnson said "I know, but I'd sure like to hear him deny it."
Good grief. You were one those in law school.

Here endeth the conversation.

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Old 02-16-2018, 05:21 PM   #4679
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Good grief. You were one those in law school.

Here endeth the conversation.

TM

Since you brought up law school, professor Irving Younger had the classic example of why one is not permitted to require testimony to prove that something did not occur:

Cross Examining Attorney: Is it true you committed sodomy with a parrot?

I herewith withdraw as well.

Hypo for Tuesday Morning (Happy Washington's Birthday):

After President Pence is defeated in the 2020 election, President Warren asks you to draft The Warren Doctrine to make 100% clear what will happen if North Korea ever launches another missile at, over or near Japan, or at over or near the United States.
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Old 02-16-2018, 06:53 PM   #4680
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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But she can't. Just like Obama can't. Nothing she does will cause those who want to slander her with this from doing so.
Ummm, not saying she should, or that President Obama should have, but he did release his birth certificate. It didn't appease all, or probably most, but at least some people must have shut up after that.

She could do a 23 and me. (Conf to Thurgreed not saying she should, saying she could and chill some people).

But as others have said those tests are likely pretty flawed.

My part of Italy was settled by Greeks and people from what is now Albania. I have no idea what it will say I am. Plus, if you saw Little Big Man, you know the native Americans did kidnap/adopt white people. So even an Irish result doesn't preclude one from being of Native American loins.
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