LawTalkers  

Go Back   LawTalkers > General Discussion > Politics

» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
» Online Users: 53
0 members and 53 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 4,499, 10-26-2015 at 08:55 AM.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2018, 11:44 AM   #4801
ThurgreedMarshall
[intentionally omitted]
 
ThurgreedMarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 26,343
Re: Question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
When people expect dysfunction, they don't hound you about it so much.
Wow. You in a K race to name the board or what? Seems early.

TM
ThurgreedMarshall is offline  
Old 03-09-2018, 01:56 PM   #4802
ferrets_bueller
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Washington
Posts: 223
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Trump's tweet about his demand that China make up $1 billion of the trade imbalance was supposed to be $100 billion.

He can't even stupid right.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...0-billion.html

TM
Greetings, Kim Jong Un. I am very pleased to me you. The shithole of my origin is Queens. I am pleased to meet with you, and I want to present to you with The Trump Doctrine. I have not read it, of course, because it is more than 140 characters long. However, my crack foreign policy team assures me that it is designed to convince you never to launch another missile, ever again. Mr. {insert your name here; yes, I know you would never work for him, but for our academic purposes assume you drafted what you believe to be the best such policy} will now read you The Trump Doctrine. You will not receive a written copy of this Doctrine. I reserve the right to alter it at will.

To launch the discussion: The version I draft would note that:

1. Given your statements, and graphics, where you demonstrate you have the ability to hit targets in my country, let me say this: We believe you. Therefore any future launch will be assumed to be directed at the United States or its allies, and that the United States will attempt to shoot the missiles down in self defense.

2. You should hope that we are successful in doing so, because if we are not successful in shooting any launched missile down, we will have to destroy all known launching facilities. Please note that at this stage the United States has taken no steps to remove your regime.

3. If you respond by engaging in a ground war with our ally, this will be considered an attack on the United States requiring the immediate removal of your regime. You must know that the United States is capable of doing this, since I can tell you definitively that last night you had dinner in your private quarters, and I am told the veal was very much to your liking. There is no time interval where we cannot locate you. You will be dead 15 minutes after your troops cross the DMZ.

4. I understand your latest shipment of French wines arrived through the embargo today, and that you lean towards Grenache from the Rhone. I don't drink, as you know, but I'm told this is an excellent choice. Enjoy your evening.
ferrets_bueller is offline  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:04 PM   #4803
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 30,331
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller View Post
Greetings, Kim Jong Un. I am very pleased to me you. The shithole of my origin is Queens. I am pleased to meet with you, and I want to present to you with The Trump Doctrine. I have not read it, of course, because it is more than 140 characters long. However, my crack foreign policy team assures me that it is designed to convince you never to launch another missile, ever again. Mr. {insert your name here; yes, I know you would never work for him, but for our academic purposes assume you drafted what you believe to be the best such policy} will now read you The Trump Doctrine. You will not receive a written copy of this Doctrine. I reserve the right to alter it at will.

To launch the discussion: The version I draft would note that:

1. Given your statements, and graphics, where you demonstrate you have the ability to hit targets in my country, let me say this: We believe you. Therefore any future launch will be assumed to be directed at the United States or its allies, and that the United States will attempt to shoot the missiles down in self defense.

2. You should hope that we are successful in doing so, because if we are not successful in shooting any launched missile down, we will have to destroy all known launching facilities. Please note that at this stage the United States has taken no steps to remove your regime.

3. If you respond by engaging in a ground war with our ally, this will be considered an attack on the United States requiring the immediate removal of your regime. You must know that the United States is capable of doing this, since I can tell you definitively that last night you had dinner in your private quarters, and I am told the veal was very much to your liking. There is no time interval where we cannot locate you. You will be dead 15 minutes after your troops cross the DMZ.

4. I understand your latest shipment of French wines arrived through the embargo today, and that you lean towards Grenache from the Rhone. I don't drink, as you know, but I'm told this is an excellent choice. Enjoy your evening.
No one in their right mind would make a deal with Trump, because even if he could deliver, he will change his mind and renege or ask for more. Just ask Chuck Schumer or Lindsay Graham. North Korea wins just by getting a meeting in which we treat them as equals.

That said, I am inclined to think it's great that Trump is saying he will meet with them, because it seems to me to materially decrease the chances that we will bomb them, which seems to have been a plan pushed by at least some people in the White House. As long as they are willing to talk, it would be pretty hard to bomb them, even for this White House. And while recognizing North Korea as an equal is a coup for them, it is also a recognition of reality, in the sense that they have nuclear weapons and we need to adjust our expectations to accommodate that reality.
__________________
“Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof”
- John Kenneth Galbraith
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 03-09-2018, 04:49 PM   #4804
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 30,331
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
No one in their right mind would make a deal with Trump, because even if he could deliver, he will change his mind and renege or ask for more. Just ask Chuck Schumer or Lindsay Graham. North Korea wins just by getting a meeting in which we treat them as equals.

That said, I am inclined to think it's great that Trump is saying he will meet with them, because it seems to me to materially decrease the chances that we will bomb them, which seems to have been a plan pushed by at least some people in the White House. As long as they are willing to talk, it would be pretty hard to bomb them, even for this White House. And while recognizing North Korea as an equal is a coup for them, it is also a recognition of reality, in the sense that they have nuclear weapons and we need to adjust our expectations to accommodate that reality.
Even if they walk the whole thing back, the ineptitude would still seem to make us safer.
__________________
“Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof”
- John Kenneth Galbraith
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:48 AM   #4805
ThurgreedMarshall
[intentionally omitted]
 
ThurgreedMarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 26,343
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
And while recognizing North Korea as an equal is a coup for them, it is also a recognition of reality, in the sense that they have nuclear weapons and we need to adjust our expectations to accommodate that reality.
I keep hearing this. How is this a coup?

I understand Kim Jong Un desperately wants legitimacy. Sure. But in whose eyes but his own will this increase his legitimacy? His people are either brainwashed or cowed into complete submission. No other country is going to start treating him any differently than they currently are. What difference does it make? This isn't high school. It's not like the cool kids inviting the nerd to their table at lunch immediately changing his social status.

TM
ThurgreedMarshall is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 12:53 PM   #4806
Adder
I am beyond a rank!
 
Adder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,079
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I keep hearing this. How is this a coup?

I understand Kim Jong Un desperately wants legitimacy. Sure. But in whose eyes but his own will this increase his legitimacy? His people are either brainwashed or cowed into complete submission. No other country is going to start treating him any differently than they currently are. What difference does it make? This isn't high school. It's not like the cool kids inviting the nerd to their table at lunch immediately changing his social status.

TM
Maybe increases his credibility within the regime?
Adder is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 12:58 PM   #4807
ThurgreedMarshall
[intentionally omitted]
 
ThurgreedMarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 26,343
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Maybe increases his credibility within the regime?
A regime where even the appearance of questioning his credibility gets you a death sentence?

TM
ThurgreedMarshall is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 01:50 PM   #4808
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 30,331
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I keep hearing this. How is this a coup?

I understand Kim Jong Un desperately wants legitimacy. Sure. But in whose eyes but his own will this increase his legitimacy? His people are either brainwashed or cowed into complete submission. No other country is going to start treating him any differently than they currently are. What difference does it make? This isn't high school. It's not like the cool kids inviting the nerd to their table at lunch immediately changing his social status.

TM
Internal and external legitimacy are linked, and if Trump meets with him then we are treating him differently, since we've never been willing to do that before. If the cool kids invite the nerd to gun club because now he's got a gun too, then he's their equal in a new way.

I'd rather invite him to the gun club than have him go postal one day.
__________________
“Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof”
- John Kenneth Galbraith
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:08 PM   #4809
ThurgreedMarshall
[intentionally omitted]
 
ThurgreedMarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 26,343
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Internal and external legitimacy are linked, and if Trump meets with him then we are treating him differently, since we've never been willing to do that before. If the cool kids invite the nerd to gun club because now he's got a gun too, then he's their equal in a new way.
This paragraph doesn't really say anything. Meeting with him doesn't make him legitimate in our eyes or any other country's eyes. It doesn't matter if he can brag to his people about meeting with Trump since they're all terrified of him anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I'd rather invite him to the gun club than have him go postal one day.
This is a strange response from someone who I went back and forth with about whether he's been acting rationally and whether he poses a danger. I remember saying he's nuts and remember you saying he was completely rational.

That's neither here nor there, of course. I'm not against a President meeting with the guy since I think it really makes no difference. I'm not sure Trump should be the guy since he's a fucking idiot who shouldn't be in the room with any world leaders, let alone ones who are as stupid, ignorant, and crazy as he is.

TM
ThurgreedMarshall is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:30 PM   #4810
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 23,124
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Internal and external legitimacy are linked, and if Trump meets with him then we are treating him differently, since we've never been willing to do that before. If the cool kids invite the nerd to gun club because now he's got a gun too, then he's their equal in a new way.

I'd rather invite him to the gun club than have him go postal one day.
He's not going postal. He's despot addicted to power, not a suicide bomber.

It's the same old shakedown he does every few years.

Maybe something comes out of the meeting, but I doubt it. Nukes are Kim's sole bargaining chip.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:35 PM   #4811
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 23,124
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
This paragraph doesn't really say anything. Meeting with him doesn't make him legitimate in our eyes or any other country's eyes. It doesn't matter if he can brag to his people about meeting with Trump since they're all terrified of him anyway.
Correct, but I think it confers an air of credibility Kim doesn't have. Kim wants the photo op with Trump, if nothing else. He's never enjoyed any level of respect like that.

Quote:
I remember saying he's nuts and remember you saying he was completely rational.
I think Ty was right. Kim's totally rational. Sick, demented, cruel, paranoid, but also rational.

Quote:
That's neither here nor there, of course. I'm not against a President meeting with the guy since I think it really makes no difference. I'm not sure Trump should be the guy since he's a fucking idiot who shouldn't be in the room with any world leaders, let alone ones who are as stupid, ignorant, and crazy as he is.
I've never heard anyone say Kim was dumb or ignorant. Comparing him to Trump in these regards may be unfair.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:41 PM   #4812
Adder
I am beyond a rank!
 
Adder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,079
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
A regime where even the appearance of questioning his credibility gets you a death sentence?

TM
That type of regime seems stable until it's suddenly not, with the challenge often coming from within. Propping up the appearance of its external influence helps deter the challenge?

I don't know. Just spitballing here.
Adder is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 05:10 PM   #4813
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 30,331
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
This paragraph doesn't really say anything. Meeting with him doesn't make him legitimate in our eyes or any other country's eyes. It doesn't matter if he can brag to his people about meeting with Trump since they're all terrified of him anyway.
You said, no one country is going to start treating him differently. But meeting with him is treating him differently. You might say it doesn't really matter, but I don't think that's right. It's harder for us to take some actions against North Korea (e.g., attacking them) once the leaders hold a summit.

And I think it does help him with his own subjects, which is surely what he most cares about.

Quote:
This is a strange response from someone who I went back and forth with about whether he's been acting rationally and whether he poses a danger. I remember saying he's nuts and remember you saying he was completely rational.
True. I would rather Trump talks to him because it makes it harder from Trump to launch a strike. I was just trying to have some fun with your metaphor.
__________________
“Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof”
- John Kenneth Galbraith
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 03-12-2018, 05:56 PM   #4814
ThurgreedMarshall
[intentionally omitted]
 
ThurgreedMarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 26,343
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Correct, but I think it confers an air of credibility Kim doesn't have. Kim wants the photo op with Trump, if nothing else. He's never enjoyed any level of respect like that.



I think Ty was right. Kim's totally rational. Sick, demented, cruel, paranoid, but also rational.



I've never heard anyone say Kim was dumb or ignorant. Comparing him to Trump in these regards may be unfair.
Can't say I disagree with anything in this post.

TM
ThurgreedMarshall is offline  
Old 03-13-2018, 11:07 AM   #4815
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 18,884
Re: Dumbest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Can't say I disagree with anything in this post.

TM
The Kim meeting strikes me as just an authoritarian recipe swap. They'll talk about manipulating the press, stirring hatred to keep control, the usual stuff.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:25 AM.