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Old 03-15-2019, 11:55 AM   #751
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
People are careful, and use this thing we call language, with all sorts of words in it, to state a thing in an accurate fashion.
No Americans (probably no people) (oh, wait for the big concession) - aside from newborns - are free from racially biased attitudes and beliefs that influence their behavior. This is a factually accurate statement.

You just want to insist that "racist" means something other than "has racially biased attitudes and beliefs that influence their behavior."* It doesn't.

*Note, this is not intended as an exhaustive definition of the term, but it's part of it.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:55 AM   #752
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Have you even paused to consider the fact that no one agrees with you is pretty strong evidence that the thing you believe is self-evident just isn't?

And it really would not be hard to find evidence for that case (there are actual people out there studying this stuff, you know). Heck, exhibit 1 is the fact you have repeatedly offered "are newborns racist?" as though it doesn't make you sounds like a 7th grader.



Yes, and it's not what you think it is.
The opinions of people on this board are irrelevant. A fact is what it is regardless of how many people think a certain way about it.

I'm not the one who sounds like a 7th grader here. You've said everyone in the US is racist. Do you have any grasp how laughable that sounds? You may get atta boys from fellow travelers here, but this place is not reality.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:09 PM   #753
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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No Americans (probably no people) (oh, wait for the big concession) - aside from newborns - are free from racially biased attitudes and beliefs that influence their behavior. This is a factually accurate statement.

You just want to insist that "racist" means something other than "has racially biased attitudes and beliefs that influence their behavior."* It doesn't.

*Note, this is not intended as an exhaustive definition of the term, but it's part of it.
That's a definition so expansive it means nothing. We all have biases about everything we see. When you encounter anything, your brain will analyze all sorts of features of the thing, scan its history regarding encounters with such things or with similar things, and develop an immediate bias towards it. Could be positive, negative, neutral, whatever.

If one has a bias of any sort toward people of a certain race, its among a million other biases he has towards an endless number of stimuli. You're effectively saying that to allow a person's race to impact your bias toward the person renders one racist. This would make it impossible to not be a racist in regard to anyone of any race (unless you were blind). One would necessarily be racist toward all races. So this ludicrous definition is useful how?
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:18 PM   #754
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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One would necessarily be racist toward all races. So this ludicrous definition is useful how?
It succinctly describes the reality that we all live in. If you don't use that word, there isn't another that captures the way in which we all are complicit, in varying ways, through what we do and don't do, in perpetuating societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity.

You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity. You also agree that just about everyone is involved in perpetuating it, intentionally and consciously or unintentionally and inadvertently. You just resist, as a matter of semantics apparently, using this word to describe that.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:51 PM   #755
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity.
Correct.

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You also agree that just about everyone is involved in perpetuating it, intentionally and consciously or unintentionally and inadvertently.
Incorrect. I can't possibly agree with that. It's like saying we all make the at or near the average income. This is the problem with these generalizations. It's also mindless, effectively restating the facile argument that "if you're in a generally racist society or system, you're automatically racist."

Also, as noted above, if you define racism to include any bias toward a race, as Adder has, then all people everywhere are racists (save the blind) to all races. If you see a person, you assess a person based in part on biases you have, and that person's physical appearance is necessarily part of that assessment.

Under Adder's construct, racism is omnipresent and not limited to discrimination against African Americans. You would be racist toward me to the extent you look at me and conclude anything about me based on my race. Quite strangely, his definition would enable "reverse racism" claims.

But why get into all of this? Just say, "US society is comprised of racist systems." That's unquestionably accurate.

If I might guess why people want to instead say "everyone is racist," it's because that's much easier and has more bite. Also, people want to be able to personalize it -- to make everyone part of the problem. This makes for a much more compelling argument. The problem is, any person with a tiny bit of logic in his head sees this as disingenuous. And doubling down on the illogic by saying that if one takes issue with it one is exhibiting fragility makes it even worse. (Some white people do exhibit fragility. It's a real thing. But to argue that any defense to an allegation or racism is automatically fragility, or proves fragility, is such a vacant trope I have trouble dignifying it with response.)

You've tried cases. Never promise in the opening what you can't almost certainly deliver with evidence. These expansive or "woke" definitions work here, but don't fly with the general public. Not because the general public is racist. Because even our often dim general public has some rudimentary logic skills. And it doesn't take much facility with logic to spot what these well meaning "narrative creators" are attempting.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:05 PM   #756
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

It is astonishing how few clues the average American male our age has about race. Sebby ipsa loquitur.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:12 PM   #757
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3+3=7

The USSR was communist. You lived in the USSR. Therefore, you were communist.

No. You could have been many different things. The system in which you exist or existed and you yourself are two distinct entities.

This is why identity politics becomes such a mess. No matter how hard people try, they never square that circle.

Why they keep trying I'll never know. Perhaps an acute allergy to arguments of degree.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:16 PM   #758
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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It is astonishing how few clues the average American male our age has about race. Sebby ipsa loquitur.
Nothing to do with race. It's all about simple logic. You can apply the "narrative creation" argument to endless subjects in which people try to prove something that cannot be proven, or simply isn't.

Climate change denial is another huge one.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:27 PM   #759
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Incorrect. I can't possibly agree with that. It's like saying we all make the at or near the average income. This is the problem with these generalizations. It's also mindless, effectively restating the facile argument that "if you're in a generally racist society or system, you're automatically racist."
Hey, I'm going to stop you right there, because the rest of your response was in the same vein. I responded to you on your terms, without using the word "racist." Now we're talking about what reality is, not about what label you put on it. You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity. Do you really disagree that just about everyone is involved, with or without being aware of or meaning to, by action or omission, perpetuating systemic disadvantage? I said "just about everyone" because of your concern about newborns.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:32 PM   #760
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Also, as noted above, if you define racism to include any bias toward a race, as Adder has, then all people everywhere are racists (save the blind)
Um, what makes you think the blind are free from racial bias? I really don't think you're thinking very carefully about these issues.

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But why get into all of this? Just say, "US society is comprised of racist systems."
Because it allows, for example, you, to wash your hands and view it as someone else's problem.

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If I might guess why people want to instead say "everyone is racist," it's because that's much easier and has more bite.
It's because everyone needs to know that they, personally, have work to do. Hank needs to be aware of how he reacts to people on the street (who among us does not?). Ty needs to be aware of his hiring instincts. I need to be careful with the assumptions I make about people.

I have absolutely no doubt that you have things you, personally, should be doing for racial equality.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:49 PM   #761
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Um, what makes you think the blind are free from racial bias? I really don't think you're thinking very carefully about these issues.
I'm actually thinking about it far more carefully than you are. I was describing bias based on appearance. The blind, uh, don't see. But yes, they can be biased.

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Because it allows, for example, you, to wash your hands and view it as someone else's problem.
Okay. But that doesn't prove everyone is racist. Now you're admitting you're crafting a narrative to cause people to do things.

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It's because everyone needs to know that they, personally, have work to do. Hank needs to be aware of how he reacts to people on the street (who among us does not?). Ty needs to be aware of his hiring instincts. I need to be careful with the assumptions I make about people.
Now you're really proving my point. It isn't about facts. It's about adjusting others' behavior.

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I have absolutely no doubt that you have things you, personally, should be doing for racial equality.
There are. And you can tell me that, honestly. Why instead say everyone is racist? And why insist that's true where you're clearly admitting that's not offered as a provable or proven fact but as device to modify people's behavior? Do you not understand how this transparently manipulative stuff hobbles your ability to reach the goals you seek?
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:54 PM   #762
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Now you're admitting you're crafting a narrative to cause people to do things.
No, I'm describing reality, which you seem dead-set to deny, because you use a word in a weirdly idiosyncratic way that you somehow also believe is universal and undeniable.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:58 PM   #763
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Hey, I'm going to stop you right there, because the rest of your response was in the same vein. I responded to you on your terms, without using the word "racist." Now we're talking about what reality is, not about what label you put on it. You agree that there is societal discrimination and systematic disadvantage based on race and ethnicity. Do you really disagree that just about everyone is involved, with or without being aware of or meaning to, by action or omission, perpetuating systemic disadvantage? I said "just about everyone" because of your concern about newborns.
"Involved" is a whale net. What does that even mean?

I cannot state that "just about everyone" is racist any more than I can prove "everyone is racist" because there's no way to prove either. I'd be talking out my ass as there's no way to get the data. (Unless I use Adder's goofy definition where everyone everywhere is racist toward everyone else.)

But I can look at systems and see that they create racist results and appear to be geared to do so. That data is voluminous.

The system and the individual are Two Different Things. You are never going to make them one because that is impossible. That is the fundamental flaw in identity politics that precludes it from getting a significant foothold.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:03 PM   #764
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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No, I'm describing reality, which you seem dead-set to deny, because you use a word in a weirdly idiosyncratic way that you somehow also believe is universal and undeniable.
When you say "reality," I agree with you. It is true, and real, that you are not being factual, but instead saying something that is not factual to try to make people behave a certain way.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:04 PM   #765
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
"Involved" is a whale net. What does that even mean?

I cannot state that "just about everyone" is racist any more than I can prove "everyone is racist" because there's no way to prove either. I'd be talking out my ass as there's no way to get the data. (Unless I use Adder's goofy definition where everyone everywhere is racist toward everyone else.)

But I can look at systems and see that they create racist results and appear to be geared to do so. That data is voluminous.

The system and the individual are Two Different Things. You are never going to make them one because that is impossible. That is the fundamental flaw in identity politics that precludes it from getting a significant foothold.
Suffice it to say that we fundamentally disagree about whether it is easier to convince people that racist systems or individual biases exist.
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