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Old 01-11-2018, 06:07 PM   #3676
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I wasn't defending my family member's pain, I was responding to you somehow thinking I was equating rape with consensual sex. I'm not on any pedestal.
The quotes donít undo that conflation.

And how could you argue with a societal shift in which women become the more frequent pursuing sex? This whole mess stems from men malevolently pursuing women. At the core of the problem always remains this weird notion women are creatures to be seduced, captured, etc. That thinking is a short ride to ďwomen should be controlled.Ē Itís nearly a commodification of them.

Give them the wheel. They canít do worse than we have.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:12 PM   #3677
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I’m interested in the bleed over of this into regular relations, which is where I think Deneuve was heading. That’s a far more interesting conversation.
The notion that men who respect women and treat women the way they would want to be treated somehow slip or err because they don't know where the line is, and are going to get into trouble because of "the bleed over of this (?)" into those "regular relations" -- that just seems obtuse to me. Lots of men treat women poorly because they want to and they can. They know what they're doing. They understand that it's not OK. To take just one example, it's pretty clear that Glenn Thrush knew what he was doing and knew to tell stories about his targets to protect himself and weaken their standing. He didn't rape anyone (so far as I know) but it certainly wasn't innocuous.

The idea that this is really about some misunderstanding or confusion or different expectations -- that's basically a load of crap that is convenient for assholes to hide behind.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:17 PM   #3678
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The quotes donít undo that conflation.
In context yeah they did. Say the words "I'm sorry, I misread."

Quote:
And how could you argue with a societal shift in which women become the more frequent pursuing sex? This whole mess stems from men malevolently pursuing women. At the core of the problem always remains this weird notion women are creatures to be seduced, captured, etc. That thinking is a short ride to ďwomen should be controlled.Ē Itís nearly a commodification of them.

Give them the wheel. They canít do worse than we have.
so in discussing a real world problem, where you yourself say basically every woman you know has been a victim, to at least some extent, you propose changing the way men and women approach each other? How will we achieve the goal? Shock collars on the men for a generation or two? And NVM that it wouldn't address the problem in society, or even that mentioned in the article you link. In fact, what you've done is contrary to the article.

The article's point is Harvey et al do not justify bringing down a man who flirts etc. You follow up with, "let's ignore the Harvey's, and change society to remove the man's urge to flirt etc." I'm know I'm in a vortex here, and you just post shit, and I am now done. By my god, have some intellectual standards.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:39 PM   #3679
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
The notion that men who respect women and treat women the way they would want to be treated somehow slip or err because they don't know where the line is, and are going to get into trouble because of "the bleed over of this (?)" into those "regular relations" -- that just seems obtuse to me. Lots of men treat women poorly because they want to and they can. They know what they're doing. They understand that it's not OK. To take just one example, it's pretty clear that Glenn Thrush knew what he was doing and knew to tell stories about his targets to protect himself and weaken their standing. He didn't rape anyone (so far as I know) but it certainly wasn't innocuous.

The idea that this is really about some misunderstanding or confusion or different expectations -- that's basically a load of crap that is convenient for assholes to hide behind.
Thatís a gross simplification of something with a million different angles to it. A very binary rendering of an incredibly complicated situation.

Unless, of course, you think relations between the sexes is something that can be explained in a tweet.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:49 PM   #3680
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
In context yeah they did. Say the words "I'm sorry, I misread."


so in discussing a real world problem, where you yourself say basically every woman you know has been a victim, to at least some extent, you propose changing the way men and women approach each other? How will we achieve the goal? Shock collars on the men for a generation or two? And NVM that it wouldn't address the problem in society, or even that mentioned in the article you link. In fact, what you've done is contrary to the article.

The article's point is Harvey et al do not justify bringing down a man who flirts etc. You follow up with, "let's ignore the Harvey's, and change society to remove the man's urge to flirt etc." I'm know I'm in a vortex here, and you just post shit, and I am now done. By my god, have some intellectual standards.
I didnít misread. Youíre having it both ways.

I am ignoring the Harveys. I cop to that. Iím more interested in the meta question of how and why the social structures that govern our sexual behaviors have emerged as they have. They seem quite artificial and bizarre to me. They always have. So yes, Iím ďjumping off,Ē and you can change the channel, or ignore me.

Deneuve addressed flirting. I said, why not remove the manís need to do it. Thatís not contrary to Deneuve. Itís taking her focus in a different direction. My point and hers are much more closely related than my focus and yours.

And youíre offering no intellectual rigor. Youíre censoring, and strangely insisting people stick to what you wish to discuss.

I have no obligation to stick to any topic, nor do you.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:54 PM   #3681
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I didnít misread. Youíre having it both ways.

I am ignoring the Harveys. I cop to that. Iím more interested in the meta question of how and why the social structures that govern our sexual behaviors have emerged as they have. They seem quite artificial and bizarre to me. They always have. So yes, Iím ďjumping off,Ē and you can change the channel, or ignore me.

Deneuve addressed flirting. I said, why not remove the manís need to do it. Thatís not contrary to Deneuve. Itís taking her focus in a different direction. My point and hers are much more closely related than my focus and yours.

And youíre offering no intellectual rigor. Youíre censoring, and strangely insisting people stick to what you wish to discuss.

I have no obligation to stick to any topic, nor do you.
When you guys reply to him, Iíve wondered why do you do it? Iím not talking about hitting him about being in the group that made Trump President, that is fun. But why do you engage with him on this type topic. Itís stupid.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:04 PM   #3682
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Thatís a gross simplification of something with a million different angles to it. A very binary rendering of an incredibly complicated situation.

Unless, of course, you think relations between the sexes is something that can be explained in a tweet.
I guess one way to put it is that I'm not really seeing the interesting conversation that you see coming out of this, and your continue to converse about it has so far not changed that. So far your efforts are self-refuting. It's the start of a new year and I want to be optimistic, so I am hopeful that you will find a way to turn this one around.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:05 PM   #3683
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Deneuve addressed flirting. I said, why not remove the manís need to do it.
Also, why not get everyone a helicopter. That would be cool.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:07 PM   #3684
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
When you guys reply to him, I’ve wondered why do you do it? I’m not talking about hitting him about being in the group that made Trump President, that is fun. But why do you engage with him on this type topic. It’s stupid.
I've been doing required CLEs on substance abuse, which required that I sit at the computer but let me cruise the interwebs so long as I clicked on the periodic pop-up window to prove I was watching. Also, it's the start of a new year and I want to be optimistic, so I am hopeful that he will find a way to turn this one around.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:16 PM   #3685
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Pauly Shore makes a pretty good Stephen Miller:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9udOgvVwcE
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:38 PM   #3686
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
When you guys reply to him, Iíve wondered why do you do it? Iím not talking about hitting him about being in the group that made Trump President, that is fun. But why do you engage with him on this type topic. Itís stupid.
Wait a minute. Aren't you the person who primarily engaged him on this topic?

Speaking of hitting him about being in the group that made Trump president, remember how Sebastian always used to complain about how we were an echo chamber who over-simplified Trump's campaign by calling all of his supporters racist xenophobes (even though we constantly had to remind him that the only person who was actually saying that was him)? Well, I think I am going to amend my prior position. Between his treatment of Mexicans and other Central and South Americans and his call to prevent immigrations from people from shit-hole countries like Haiti and all of the countries in Africa (although I have no confidence that Trump understands that Africa is a continent, not a country), it seems pretty indisputable that Trump himself is an unapologetic racist xenophobe. So, if you helped an unapologetic racist xenophobe become president, knowing that he would use his presidency to promote his racist xenophobic agenda, how can you argue that you yourself are not a racist xenophobe? Can you just say that you are not a racist xenophobe, but that you don't mind having a president who is, so long as he has some other great ideas like . . . whatever the fuck his other great ideas supposedly are? I don't buy it. So there, Sebastian, I finally said it. All of Trump's supporters are racist xenophobes.

As for Deneuve, I am no more impressed by apologists of child rape when they are beautiful actresses than when they are hillbilly senatorial candidates.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:45 PM   #3687
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Re: Deneuve

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Wait a minute. Aren't you the person who primarily engaged him on this topic?
Imagine being at an amusement park and seeing a ride that was boring and you couldn't get much out of, say The Tiki tiki tiki room at Disney? And people you respect keep going on the ride, again and again, and you want to say, you seem smart Ty/GGG/T, why are you doing this, but instead you think: maybe I am missing out? maybe it's fun? So then I do try. You cannot understand this?
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:29 PM   #3688
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Re: Deneuve

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Imagine being at an amusement park and seeing a ride that was boring and you couldn't get much out of, say The Tiki tiki tiki room at Disney? And people you respect keep going on the ride, again and again, and you want to say, you seem smart Ty/GGG/T, why are you doing this, but instead you think: maybe I am missing out? maybe it's fun? So then I do try. You cannot understand this?
Oddly, I think I do understand now. And now, you're all like, what the fuck dudes? The Tiki Tiki Tiki Room is the dumbest waste of my time since all the time I spent on those Guernica posts. I respected you guys, and while you may not have explicitly told me to go to the Tiki Tiki Tiki Room, you openly made it seem like it was a good and important thing to do, and I would not have gone there but for your implicit endorsement. I would add up the time you spent thinking about, writing, and proofreading (jk!) your debate with Sebastian, give me an inflated hourly rate, and I will serve a demand letter on your behalf.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:54 AM   #3689
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Re: Deneuve

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Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower View Post
Speaking of hitting him about being in the group that made Trump president, remember how Sebastian always used to complain about how we were an echo chamber who over-simplified Trump's campaign by calling all of his supporters racist xenophobes (even though we constantly had to remind him that the only person who was actually saying that was him)? Well, I think I am going to amend my prior position. Between his treatment of Mexicans and other Central and South Americans and his call to prevent immigrations from people from shit-hole countries like Haiti and all of the countries in Africa (although I have no confidence that Trump understands that Africa is a continent, not a country), it seems pretty indisputable that Trump himself is an unapologetic racist xenophobe. So, if you helped an unapologetic racist xenophobe become president, knowing that he would use his presidency to promote his racist xenophobic agenda, how can you argue that you yourself are not a racist xenophobe? Can you just say that you are not a racist xenophobe, but that you don't mind having a president who is, so long as he has some other great ideas like . . . whatever the fuck his other great ideas supposedly are? I don't buy it. So there, Sebastian, I finally said it. All of Trump's supporters are racist xenophobes.
Why doesn't Trump just own his racism? Why does he feel a need to hide it?
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:04 AM   #3690
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Re: Deneuve

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Why doesn't Trump just own his racism? Why does he feel a need to hide it?
When you say that you don't think we should allow people from shithole countries (all the countries where black people live) into the U.S, and instead suggest that we should let more people in from Norway (where no black people live), I'm not sure it is accurate to say that you are "hiding" your racism. It's like hiding an elephant behind a dandelion. You can point to the dandelion all you want, but everybody sees the elephant.
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