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Old 12-06-2017, 02:36 PM   #3226
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Sad but true.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:32 AM   #3227
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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A bunch of D Senators (and others) are now calling for Franken to resign, and he's scheduled an announcement for the morning. Conyers has resigned (amid new, really creepy allegations that he mentioned Chandra Levy after being rejected by an intern/staffer).

Tell me again about how the parties are the same on this one?

(Meanwhile, in Minnesota, both the D and R legislators who were accused stepped down, so yeah.)
If only both parties could have the moral backbone to stand up against wrongdoing against women in safe districts after half a dozen accusers come forward, just in time for the Alabama election.


ETA: I don't think I have to state again my disapproval of Moore, and that the accusations against him are of course far worse than Franken. Dumbass Blake Farenthold should also resign, but probably won't because he sucks.


If Michigan elects John Conyers III, the Dems will have again abandoned any high ground in the event of an increasingly likely win by Moore.

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Old 12-07-2017, 11:48 AM   #3228
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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If only both parties could have the moral backbone to stand up against wrongdoing against women in safe districts after half a dozen accusers come forward, just in time for the Alabama election.



If Michigan elects John Conyers III, the Dems will have again abandoned any high ground in the event of an increasingly likely win by Moore.
Wait, if Michigan elects the son of a sexual harasser, then the democratic party as a whole has lost the ability to criticize the election of the child molester who has been endorsed by the RNC?

Serious question -- if Franken were a prominent Republican, do you think Republican Senators would have resoundingly called for him to step down?
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:09 PM   #3229
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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Wait, if Michigan elects the son of a sexual harasser, then the democratic party as a whole has lost the ability to criticize the election of the child molester who has been endorsed by the RNC?

Serious question -- if Franken were a prominent Republican, do you think Republican Senators would have resoundingly called for him to step down?
My problem with Conyer's III isn't so much with respect to his father's conduct as it is the arrest for stabbing his girlfriend, who still has a restraining order against him. I mean, who among us hasn't been arrested for stabbing a domestic partner? If they allow Conyers III to be elected based on, well, the voters knew about it and they elected him anyway, then I think the Democrats cede any moral high ground they may have gained due to Moore.

I would expect the GOP to be at least as morally bankrupt as the Democrats, if not more so. It would have been more meaningful from the Dems if they hadn't waited on Franken until there were what? 8 accusers? And Nancy Pelosi's statement about Conyers being an icon didn't help the party image. I do not think that the GOP would have done it better. My point is that they both suck.

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Old 12-07-2017, 12:30 PM   #3230
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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If only both parties could have the moral backbone to stand up against wrongdoing against women in safe districts after half a dozen accusers come forward, just in time for the Alabama election.


Franken should have resigned sooner, and his colleagues should have called for it sooner, but the fact remains that it looks like he's about to resign.

Also, it's a safe seat for right now - because Dayton will appoint his replacement - but it's not necessary all that safe for the special election in 2018.

ETA: By the way, I don't really think the Alabama Senate race has much to do with it. Or at least it shouldn't, because it isn't going to make a darn bit of difference there and the elected Dems involved should be smart enough to know that.

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Dumbass Blake Farenthold should also resign, but probably won't because he sucks.
And because his party doesn't even remotely expect him to. Despite being in a safe district and with plenty of time before the Alabama election.

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If Michigan elects John Conyers III
Given yesterday's news, that seems unlikely.

Last edited by Adder; 12-07-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:33 PM   #3231
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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My point is that they both suck.
Yes, your point is that being slow at doing something that's actually kind of hard - it shouldn't be but is because it is, in fact, a big change in how things have worked - "sucks" in the same way as doing the exact opposite thing.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:37 PM   #3232
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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My problem with Conyer's III isn't so much with respect to his father's conduct as it is the arrest for stabbing his girlfriend, who still has a restraining order against him. I mean, who among us hasn't been arrested for stabbing a domestic partner?

I would expect the GOP to be at least as morally bankrupt as the Democrats, if not more so. It would have been more meaningful from the Dems if they hadn't waited until there were what? 8 accusers? And Nancy Pelosi's statement about Conyers being an icon didn't help the party image. I do not think that the GOP would have done it better. My point is that they both suck.
After I posted, I saw the articles about the arrest, and Conyers III should not even consider running from what little I have read. But the RNC endorsement of Moore is reprehensible on a level that I have rarely seen, even in politics. And it will remain so regardless of whom is elected in Michigan. It is extremely disturbing that people are trying to suggest that Moore cannot be criticized by Democrats because some Democrats have done bad things as well. It is exactly the type of deflection that Trump engages in so effectively. Yeah, Moore has his accusers, but what about Franken? Fuck that shit. I don't give a fuck what Pelosi says about Conyers -- the RNC endorsement of Moore just fucking disgusting, and the national Republican party can now proudly be the party of child molester apologists.

As for Franken, the first accusations were bad, but if you equate them with child moletation, then you are not being honest with yourself. Different situations merit different responses. As morally indefensible as it is to try to force a kiss upon a woman, it is a very different thing than a 30-something man groping and trying to fuck a 14 year old. And sure, there is more than enough hypocrisy in both parties to go around, and the calls by Democrats for Franken to resign may have been too slow, but I can almost guarantee you that if Franken were a Republican, there would be somewhere in the neighborhood of ZERO calls from his Republican colleagues for him to set down. And you suggest that Minnesota is a safe district, but Franken won his seat from a Republican incumbent. So yeah, both parties suck in in a whole variety of ways, but the Republicans hit the bottom of the moral sewer this year, and then started digging so they could go lower.
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:50 PM   #3233
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

I am not a defender of Moore. It sickens me how some "conservatives" like the fine people at The Pederalist, seriously engage in child molestation apologetics. The accusations between Franken and Moore are not even close to being comparable, and the whataboutism is disgusting. Moore is a special level of revolting, and disgusting behavior by Clinton/Kennedy/Franken/Conyers isn't an excuse. The GOP (minus Sasse, Lee and Romney) are garbage human beings. That said, Pelosi continued to defend Conyers after the allegations when she could have demurred. The fact that the GOP is garbage doesn't make that right either. The GOP made the right call to pull out of the Moore race initially, and a craven one to go back in on his behalf.

I am increasingly convinced that we should have term limits and toss out pretty much all of them and start over.
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:10 PM   #3234
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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My problem with Conyer's III isn't so much with respect to his father's conduct as it is the arrest for stabbing his girlfriend, who still has a restraining order against him. I mean, who among us hasn't been arrested for stabbing a domestic partner? If they allow Conyers III to be elected based on, well, the voters knew about it and they elected him anyway, then I think the Democrats cede any moral high ground they may have gained due to Moore.
I'm a Democrat, and I'm not going to get to vote in that election, so I'm going to be sad if I have to move my tent off the high ground here.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:03 PM   #3235
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Bernays figured this out a century ago. And Goebbels then used it with sickening effectiveness.

I'm 3/4 through Andersen's Fantasyland, and as amusing and enlightening as it might be, it's also a bit predictable. You've seen it all before. The myths, the narratives, the revisions.

People believe what they want to believe, doubt what they don't, and these behaviors reinforce one another.

It's damn hard not to be tribal.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:11 PM   #3236
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I am not a defender of Moore. It sickens me how some "conservatives" like the fine people at The Pederalist, seriously engage in child molestation apologetics. The accusations between Franken and Moore are not even close to being comparable, and the whataboutism is disgusting. Moore is a special level of revolting, and disgusting behavior by Clinton/Kennedy/Franken/Conyers isn't an excuse. The GOP (minus Sasse, Lee and Romney) are garbage human beings. That said, Pelosi continued to defend Conyers after the allegations when she could have demurred. The fact that the GOP is garbage doesn't make that right either. The GOP made the right call to pull out of the Moore race initially, and a craven one to go back in on his behalf.

I am increasingly convinced that we should have term limits and toss out pretty much all of them and start over.
It sickens me that Franken is being thrown under the bus by his own party while Moore is going to wind up in the Senate.

People are more than their mistakes a decade ago. Franken fucked up. He's a bit creepy for that. But he's also one of the brighter, more reasonable, and rational people in the Senate.

Never, never once, have I heard Franken say something nakedly political. He's the antithesis of a hack, or party soldier. I don't agree with his politics, but I respect his thinking, the rigor he applies to policy assessment, and the respect for logic he brings to debates.

It's fucking sickening. And I'll say to anyone who'll listen: Franken was the victim of a witch hunt.

The penalty for past boorish behavior should not be death. The man deserved due process. He deserved a chance to defend himself. His party fucked him here, but good. It also fucked us. The country needs more people like him in the Senate.

Instead, we'll have Roy Moore, and we'll learn what lesson? That if one denies, one can weather any allegation, while a contrite response is a death warrant.

Fuck this place. Seriously. We're an infantile country.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:14 PM   #3237
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

What Dahlia Lithwick says.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:23 PM   #3238
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Re: So about how both sides will only use harassment for political gain...

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
My problem with Conyer's III isn't so much with respect to his father's conduct as it is the arrest for stabbing his girlfriend, who still has a restraining order against him. I mean, who among us hasn't been arrested for stabbing a domestic partner? If they allow Conyers III to be elected based on, well, the voters knew about it and they elected him anyway, then I think the Democrats cede any moral high ground they may have gained due to Moore.
This is all purposefully misleading.

The cops were called for a domestic incident. We all know if cops get called, people are getting arrested. But prosecutors declined to charge him. His story: The woman was the one who pulled the knife and there were no injuries sustained beyond a small stab wound to the lower biceps that occurred when he was disarming her. Her story: He was angry because he thought she was cheating and body slammed her, pinned her down and spit on her. I imagine they were both at fault and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I doubt this guy had a knife and stabbed her just a little bit in the lower biceps in a furious rage. All criminal charges were dismissed and a restraining order was entered as a cooling-off measure.

When it comes to the allegations against his father he said, "With sexual assault, women are to be believed."

And I don't give a shit about Conyers or his kid. But your bullshit is nauseating.

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I would expect the GOP to be at least as morally bankrupt as the Democrats, if not more so. It would have been more meaningful from the Dems if they hadn't waited on Franken until there were what? 8 accusers? And Nancy Pelosi's statement about Conyers being an icon didn't help the party image. I do not think that the GOP would have done it better. My point is that they both suck.
Fuck that. Trump has, what, 14+ women accusing him? Republicans made him President of the United States after he admits to sexual assault on fucking tape. It is clear that Moore has spent a large portion of his life trying to engage in sex with children and the President of the United States and the Republican Party are openly and proudly supporting his bid for Senate.

Conyers is fucking gone. Franken is gone. Both forced out by Democrats. Your attempts at equivalency are embarrassing.

TM

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Old 12-07-2017, 04:33 PM   #3239
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Never, never once, have I heard Franken say something nakedly political. He's the antithesis of a hack, or party soldier.
Hm. I generally agree with you about Al, aside from believing he needed to do what he did, but this is going a bit too far. He's definitely a party guy and he, in fact, does sometime say nakedly political things.

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And I'll say to anyone who'll listen: Franken was the victim of a witch hunt.
Does it matter?

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The penalty for past boorish behavior should not be death.
Stop it. He's not dead.

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Instead, we'll have Roy Moore, and we'll learn what lesson?
We will learn the lesson that one party takes borish, grabby behavior by its men seriously and the other shrugs at groping teenage girls. That contrast will make some amount of difference.
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Old 12-07-2017, 04:45 PM   #3240
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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What Dahlia Lithwick says.

"We live in a broken and corroded system in which unilateral disarmament is going to destroy the very things we want to preserve."
Here's the problem: there's no other choice.

We aren't going to get the GOP to take these issues seriously by ignoring them ourselves. We just aren't. The world in which Conyers and Franken stay in fight is a world in which the pussy grabber in chief is empowered to do the same.

Yeah, he's going to do it anyway, but we still have to change what we can and any hope of ever holding him accountable has to start with being accountable ourselves. Which is really what's so powerful about the game the GOP is playing: they can win either way.

And, of course, as to Franken and Conyers, we can be reasonably confident that they will be replaced by another Dem, and not by another Roy Moore. It will be harder if/when the accused is a Dem in a red state.

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And what do Democrats have to show for [honoring norms]?
Not everything is about acquiring political power. Honoring the norms is substantive achievement on it's own. Especially when some of the norms in question are evolving toward greater respect and safety for women.

As should be pretty obvious right now, being creepy, grabby and rapey isn't a partisan behavior. Taking actual action against it is what we have to show for it.
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