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Old 05-14-2015, 03:38 PM   #46
taxwonk
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I'm glad the butt wiggle works for you. I get weird looks when I do it.
It's not the wiggle that draws the weird looks
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Old 05-14-2015, 03:42 PM   #47
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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It's not the wiggle that draws the weird looks
Is it his penis?
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Old 05-14-2015, 03:46 PM   #48
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Uh...I'm not sure what you're talking about.

NFL's no-video rule:

'The "Game Operations Manual" states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." The manual states that "all video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from a New England video assistant on the Patriots' sideline when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Taping any signals is prohibited.' -This whole thing is a quote.
You said they were taping practices. They weren't. They were taping defensive coaches' signals from the sidelines. They were allowed to tape from somewhere else, as you point out (not on the field, but e.g. from a box seat). If the rules really said that you can tape the action on the field from a box but that you can't capture in that film what is happening on the sidelines, then that's a particularly stupid rule because I would bet a lot of money (if I actually ever bet instead of just saying shit like this for rhetorical reasons) that other NFL teams had film which captured the other teams' sidelines and those their defensive signals.

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I really think you're full of it. If you think that Belichick* and Brady are doing these things for a negligible competitive advantage, you are just delusional.
Negligible is your word, not mine. What I said is that the reaction to what they have done is grossly disproportionate.
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Old 05-14-2015, 03:59 PM   #49
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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No. They filmed the Jets' defensive coaches (and their signals) from their own sidelines. They were allowed to watch the Jets' defensive coaches from their own sidelines, and they were allowed to film the Jets' defensive coaches from other places, but they were not allowed to film the Jets' defensive coaches from their own sidelines. And there again, I come out in the same place: They broke a rule, but the collective hysteria about it is grossly out of all proportion to what they did. While a rule is a rule, it's hard for me to get excited about the breaking of stupid rules. Both episodes remind of the public shaming that Jon Ronson wrote his most recent book about -- there's something irresistible about jumping on the "Patriots are cheaters" bandwagon, and there's something irresistible about inflating what they actually did. Hank knows they cheated for years every time they didn't fumble the ball, and you know they filmed other teams' practices. The narrative is just too strong.
When I was in high school, most nice afternoons we'd stop at Walgreen's and pick up a case of Miller High Life ($4/6-pack),head to the park to play football until what passed for the local motorcycle gang (snerk) showed up and wanted to play with us. We didn't like playing with them because they were real big fans of the clothesline and the late hit. On the other hand, they always had the best weed, so we'd try our best not to be crippled for another half-hour, then they'd get high with us. That was football. Once the players stopped having fun, football ceased to hold any charm for me.

Now I like NASCAR because there are fast cars, enough crashes to keep it interesting without demanding my full attention, and the outcome of the race is never certain until the final restart. Each driver takes each race very seriously, and as long as the hit isn't too obvious, justice is handled on the track by taking the offending driver out. I suppose as it becomes more of a tv sport (it's already the most popular sport in the country), we'll stop seeing drivers cutting other divers tires Roman chariot style or bumping them into the wall. With any luck, I'll be dead by then
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:03 PM   #50
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Is it his penis?
Did it seem weird to you?
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:08 PM   #51
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I don't think you read it correctly. I posted it because I thought it was a fair look at the entire debate. You can only see the refutation of "a less-than-fully scientific, sensational article that made dubious claims," while ignoring stuff like this:

"Sharp’s version of this study found a huge effect of 88 percent. But after others fixed his data, some of the same players still showed an improvement when playing for New England, of 23 percent."
Again, I'm not in the details on this, but the stuff that Burger linked to provide plenty of reasons to think that the Patriots would fumble less than other teams for good reasons (e.g., holding a big lead). Did Sharp control for that, too? That's a rhetorical question, and we don't need to get to that level of detail. Here is what that author says:

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I had nothing at all to do with Slate’s choice to go with Sharp’s analysis. But at the risk of sounding like a shameless home-team fan—or worse, a shameless Jets fan—I think it was the right decision. The analysis may not have been Good Science, in the sense of having come through careful vetting, ahead of time, by experts in the field. In retrospect we know that Sharp’s approach was somewhat slapdash, and his conclusions overblown. But it also seems as if he turned up some suggestive data. His approach was interesting—clever, even—and it led to further work.

If Sharp had behaved more like a scientist—and if Slate had acted more like a scientific journal—then his analysis would not have made it into print. There would have been no fierce debates on methodology in the comments of his post, no more hypotheses to help explain the data. Fellow geeks would not have checked his numbers and corrected his results. They would not have given us the last few days’ entertaining and enlightening dispute. We would not have a better, deeper understanding of the stats.
Call me crazy, but Hank doesn't seem to have a better, deeper understanding of the stats. He seems to think that the Patriots never fumbled and that this proves they cheated for years.

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Right. You know, it's funny. I say that it probably shouldn't be more than a 2 game suspension. I agree that Goodell is mostly posturing. But when it comes to you, it's clear that with any issue when it comes to the Patriots, you're not really trying.
Well, we agree on the NFL, I guess.

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"The report said all 11 of the Patriots' game balls, when re-tested at halftime, were below the minimum level specified by NFL rules of 12.5 psi. The four Colts game balls that were re-tested were between 12.5 and 13.5 psi, so they were within the rules."
My point was that most of the Patriots balls were not significantly below 12.5 psi. According to Wikipedia, which has cites I didn't check, "At halftime, league officials inspected the footballs. It was initially reported that eleven of the twelve balls used by the Patriots were measured to be two pounds per square inch below the minimum, but later reports refuted this allegation, citing only a single ball two pounds per square inch below the minimum."

If the latter is true, then I question whether the Pats got any competitive advantage.

Note also that the Colts had one of those balls (and for significantly more than 100 seconds). From what I know, it's possible that the Patriots staffer took the balls into the bathroom and deflated them, one more than the rest. It's also possible that they deflated (or inflated?) the balls to the bare minimum before the game, consistent with Brady's preferences and the rules, and that the Colts deflated one of them after intercepting it, and that the other balls tested a little below the minimum at half time because a different gauge was used. Like I said before, I have hardly read everything on this, so you tell me -- what evidence is there that the former happened instead of the latter? I find it very easy to believe that someone was cheating, but I also see a lot of people arguing that the Patriots are cheaters and therefore they were cheating.

eta: My main point is "If the latter is true," not the last paragraph.
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:15 PM   #52
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Did it seem weird to you?
Weirdly perfect.
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Old 05-14-2015, 04:18 PM   #53
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Negligible is your word, not mine.
You can't own words, Ty. Language is for the people. That said, you need to own your words.
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:21 PM   #54
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I thought your backflips were amusing at first. Now they just seem pathetic.

TM
Yes, yes. I get it. The Patriots were long ago established as cheaters. So it is no longer worth looking at evidence carefully - it's enough to say there's a whiff of more cheating, so they are presumptively guilty of that. It's definitely the American way.

No doubt prosecutors would love to have you on their jury.
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:28 PM   #55
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
My point was that most of the Patriots balls were not significantly below 12.5 psi. According to Wikipedia, which has cites I didn't check, "At halftime, league officials inspected the footballs. It was initially reported that eleven of the twelve balls used by the Patriots were measured to be two pounds per square inch below the minimum, but later reports refuted this allegation, citing only a single ball two pounds per square inch below the minimum."

If the latter is true, then I question whether the Pats got any competitive advantage.
If you want to let facts get in the way, look at page 8 of the report, which lists the measured ball pressures. It explains the Colts' balls were higher pressure because they started that way (13.0 or above), and most remained "within spec". The ref measured the Patriots balls to be 12.5, so any drop would put them out of spec. It's not hard. 22 measurements (2 gauges, 2 balls not measured as explained). Range from 10.5-12.3.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...93112503,d.eXY
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:29 PM   #56
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I also see a lot of people arguing that the Patriots are cheaters and therefore they were cheating.
Who? Where? That's un-American!
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:45 PM   #57
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
You said they were taping practices. They weren't. They were taping defensive coaches' signals from the sidelines. They were allowed to tape from somewhere else, as you point out (not on the field, but e.g. from a box seat). If the rules really said that you can tape the action on the field from a box but that you can't capture in that film what is happening on the sidelines, then that's a particularly stupid rule because I would bet a lot of money (if I actually ever bet instead of just saying shit like this for rhetorical reasons) that other NFL teams had film which captured the other teams' sidelines and those their defensive signals.
You're right. The rule is pointless. It's probably not in place to try to prevent guys from zeroing in on specific coaches that one wouldn't or couldn't pick out as the one sending the actual (as opposed to dummy signals) or picking up audio or catching plays off the clipboard or smaller signals from coaches who teams probably don't or can't focus on from above. Goodell fined the Patriots a first round draft pick because he didn't honor the spirit of the rule.

You are something else.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Negligible is your word, not mine. What I said is that the reaction to what they have done is grossly disproportionate.
Look, the world champs got busted cheating on the way to the Superbowl. It's a huge story. If that's your main complaint, no one really cares. I'm sure almost every other team does some shady shit as well. If the Chargers won the Superbowl and their receivers got busted for loading up on stickum in the playoffs, Charger fans would talk about how the difference between stickum and the gloves they use is minor, and how it's not that big a deal because everyone does it, etc. No one would care. You did it. You got caught. You lied. And now you look stupid. That's a huge story and it warrants a big reaction.

If you're saying the punishment is excessive, I agree. Probably should be two games, a small fine, and maybe a fourth rounder. But all this bullshit about the league not really caring, and the balls not really being deflated, and the hemming and hawing is just stupid.

TM
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Old 05-14-2015, 05:54 PM   #58
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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My point was that most of the Patriots balls were not significantly below 12.5 psi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOnRHAyXqYY


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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
According to Wikipedia, which has cites I didn't check, "At halftime, league officials inspected the footballs. It was initially reported that eleven of the twelve balls used by the Patriots were measured to be two pounds per square inch below the minimum, but later reports refuted this allegation, citing only a single ball two pounds per square inch below the minimum."
If true, what does that mean? All you're saying is the other balls were deflated less than that one. We have no idea by how much or the significance. We do know that the league places significance on the 12.5 psi threshold because they passed a rule about it.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
If the latter is true, then I question whether the Pats got any competitive advantage.
I'm sure you do.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Note also that the Colts had one of those balls (and for significantly more than 100 seconds). From what I know, it's possible that the Patriots staffer took the balls into the bathroom and deflated them, one more than the rest. It's also possible that they deflated (or inflated?) the balls to the bare minimum before the game, consistent with Brady's preferences and the rules, and that the Colts deflated one of them after intercepting it, and that the other balls tested a little below the minimum at half time because a different gauge was used. Like I said before, I have hardly read everything on this, so you tell me -- what evidence is there that the former happened instead of the latter? I find it very easy to believe that someone was cheating, but I also see a lot of people arguing that the Patriots are cheaters and therefore they were cheating.
I love it. They probably hacked into phones and sent phony text messages, made up nicknames, switched out the gauges, and paid off Goodell. It's all possible. Where's the evidence that it's not?

TM

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Old 05-14-2015, 05:58 PM   #59
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Yes, yes. I get it. The Patriots were long ago established as cheaters. So it is no longer worth looking at evidence carefully - it's enough to say there's a whiff of more cheating, so they are presumptively guilty of that. It's definitely the American way.
Exactly what I'm saying. I and everyone else, have decided to and have proven that we have not looked at the evidence carefully. What a joke.

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No doubt prosecutors would love to have you on their jury.
I bet Wells has it in for you guys too!

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Old 05-14-2015, 05:59 PM   #60
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I love it. They probably hacked into phones and sent phony text messages, made up nicknames, switched out the gauges, and paid off Goodell. It's all possible. Where's the evidence that it's not?

TM
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