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Old 05-14-2015, 07:06 PM   #76
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Originally Posted by Sidd Finch View Post
I didn't say we can't discuss that rule. I honestly enjoyed that discussion.

But, I think I realized the true answer sometime after the discussion ended.

The offsides rule does not apply on a corner kick. On a corner kick, the players all jam up in front of the goal, and everyone jumps around hoping to get a lucky tip into the goal. Sometimes you see beautiful scoring plays off a corner kick, but more often it's a lot of junky hits on the ball, and the goalie really can't do anything but try to punch the ball -- no playing angles, no coordinating the defense, nothing.

Imagine every offensive play allowing for that -- players running just to get into the box, or hanging back on offense so that they can run back, and the offense reduced to "just kick the ball really hard towards to goal and hope someone manages to pop it in". I think you'd get a higher-scoring game, but one that was essentially a series of "corner" kicks -- with the corner being whatever midfield point where a player thought "I have enough teammates in the box to take a shot and hope for the best."

You would lose all of the passing and technique that is designed to open up the defense (but that, I acknowledge, in the hands of some teams becomes boring as paste, e.g. Greece).
I can see that. But I disagree on corners. I think those are some of the most exciting points in every game. But yeah, it would be a different game if you could all bunch up in the box. I imagine that would be fixable by changing the rule to a modified offsides where you'd make the call if players were in the penalty box and offsides. Hell, maybe they'd all just bunch up on the edge of the box.

I just know there are situations when it definitely should not be called. And maybe you can't fix for that without fucking up everything else that's beautiful about the game. But there's nothing worse than a potential breakaway, when a defender sees what's coming and jumps before the pass to ensure an offsides call.*

TM

*We both know that's not true. Flopping and writhing is worse.

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Old 05-14-2015, 07:36 PM   #77
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I think you're reaching for fucking straws. Brady likes a deflated ball and apparently demands them and even lobbied the league to allow for them. The Colts suspected the Patriots of deflating balls. The actual measurements of the balls shows they were unnaturally deflated (unless you want to rely on someone's recollection about which gauge he may or may not have used). The Patriots attendant took the balls into the bathroom and then lied about it. The text messages between Patriots staffers refer to the guy who has been accused of deflating footballs illegally as "the deflator." Those same text messages talk about the reward he'll get for deflating footballs.

If you want to think the whole thing turns on this article's findings and everything else amounts to a caaaarazy coincidence, then knock yourself out.

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Really? Up until this I could at least respect a different view. But the key piece of evidence is were the balls actually deflated. We know Brady wants them at 12.5, which is legal. And we know the ideal gas law is legal. But all of that doesn't matter because of a bunch of texts? If the balls were at 12.5 and you had all these texts you seem to be saying "still a cheater". I don't get that.

And it's not "somebody's recollection". It's the ref who measured the balls. If you don't want to believe his recollection regarding the gauge, why do you believe his recollection that he actually tested every ball to be 12.5? Although maybe you're saying that if the Patriots provided him with balls that were 11.9 and he failed to catch that with his gauge, they also are guilty of cheating.

Even dopers get a better chance than this - if the A sample is positive and the B sample negative then no violation. I guess you'd be fine suspending them.
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:58 PM   #78
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I'll grant you that both of these are possible.

Do you believe they are equally possible?

I'm honestly curious. I don't plan to read the entire whatshisname report, but I believe it reached the conclusion that the former is more likely than the latter, and I don't see a good reason to reject that conclusion.
I haven't read the report either and don't plan to do so. Here's what I think happened. I think the Patriots staff knew that Brady liked balls at the legal minimum, and did their best to deliver balls to that standard. I think the ref measured them, or most of them, and thought that they met the minimum requirements. I think the guy then took a leak before he brought the balls to the field. When the balls were measured at halftime, they were measured with another gauge that gave lower readings, so that balls that were intentionally deflated to the minimum level on a first gauge were seen to be underinflated. With the exception of that one ball, everything fits.

But that doesn't explain why one ball was significantly less inflated, and I'm not sure what the answer is. I don't think the staffer went into the bathroom and deflated only one ball. On balance, I think it's most likely that the ref did a half-assed job before the game and didn't actually check all the balls, that he missed one that he should have caught. I have to imagine that checking the inflation of footballs is not something most refs enjoy and that maybe they do a half-assed job once in a while. I think it's possible, but less likely, that a Colts staffer, having heard something around the club about the team's issues with the Pats, tried to help their cause by letting a little more air out of a ball that seemed (to him) low to start with. I think it's least likely that the Patriots had a walking conspiracy to illegally deflate balls after they checked by the refs, but could only manage to let a noticeable amount of air out of one of a dozen footballs.

I also think that most people heard the initial, erroneous story that all of the balls were underinflated -- a story that we now know came from the Colts, and formed their views that the Patriots were cheating, big-time, and that -- even if they actually heard this was wrong -- stuck with the narrative and conclusion ("the Patriots cheated!") they had already formed. So, bravo to the Colts.

To my mind, the really weird fact is that only one ball was significantly deflated. If you like conspiracies, then it should be easy to do something with the fact that the only flat ball was the only ball the Colts handled. I generally think that people are more incompetent than evil. But for that one ball, I think the Pats staff was trying to give the refs balls at the legal minimum because that's what Brady liked, that the ref checked them, and that one or both did their job poorly and ended up with footballs that were just below the minimum.
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:58 PM   #79
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Really? Up until this I could at least respect a different view. But the key piece of evidence is were the balls actually deflated. We know Brady wants them at 12.5, which is legal. And we know the ideal gas law is legal. But all of that doesn't matter because of a bunch of texts? If the balls were at 12.5 and you had all these texts you seem to be saying "still a cheater". I don't get that.

And it's not "somebody's recollection". It's the ref who measured the balls. If you don't want to believe his recollection regarding the gauge, why do you believe his recollection that he actually tested every ball to be 12.5? Although maybe you're saying that if the Patriots provided him with balls that were 11.9 and he failed to catch that with his gauge, they also are guilty of cheating.

Even dopers get a better chance than this - if the A sample is positive and the B sample negative then no violation. I guess you'd be fine suspending them.
I am looking at the totality of the circumstances. I don't have much detail on what the ref said (or the underlying circumstances) other than what's argued in the article. But if you can look at everything in the report and say they didn't cheat, like I said, knock yourself out.

(And dopers get dinged if they find masking agents, but no actual dope, so you're going to have to come up with a better analogy.)

I will say this, though: If the press digs deep into this story (outside of homer newspapers) and they find that it's all just a big misunderstanding and that the guy took the footballs in the bathroom and lied about it because he liked to rub his dick on properly-inflated footballs (or some other reason) and actually is nicknamed the deflator because he can lose weight quickly, I'll admit I was wrong.

TM
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Old 05-14-2015, 08:00 PM   #80
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Pesky facts indeed.
One of my wingnut cousins (he refers to Obama as "Kenya") is always posting whackadoo stuff on Facebook with the comment "pesky facts." Please, neither of you use that phrase ever again.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:04 PM   #81
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Up until this I could at least respect a different view.
This board motto came a day late.
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Old 05-14-2015, 09:43 PM   #82
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I will say this, though: If the press digs deep into this story (outside of homer newspapers) and they find that it's all just a big misunderstanding and that the guy took the footballs in the bathroom and lied about it because he liked to rub his dick on properly-inflated footballs (or some other reason) and actually is nicknamed the deflator because he can lose weight quickly, I'll admit I was wrong.

TM
In the spirit of Thugreed's concession, if it turns out that an independent investigatory team made up entirely of drunk Jets fans determines not only that Brady is innocent of any wrongdoing, but also is a national hero and kind of sexy, and that the guy took the footballs in the bathroom and lied about it because he liked to rub his dick on properly-inflated footballs, and actually is nicknamed the deflator because of the astounding speed with which his dick becomes flaccid after rubbing said dick against said properly-inflated footballs until he has achieved satisfaction, I too will admit that Thurgreed was wrong.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:08 PM   #83
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I haven't read the report either and don't plan to do so. Here's what I think happened. I think the Patriots staff knew that Brady liked balls at the legal minimum, and did their best to deliver balls to that standard. I think the ref measured them, or most of them, and thought that they met the minimum requirements. I think the guy then took a leak before he brought the balls to the field. When the balls were measured at halftime, they were measured with another gauge that gave lower readings, so that balls that were intentionally deflated to the minimum level on a first gauge were seen to be underinflated. With the exception of that one ball, everything fits.

But that doesn't explain why one ball was significantly less inflated, and I'm not sure what the answer is. I don't think the staffer went into the bathroom and deflated only one ball. On balance, I think it's most likely that the ref did a half-assed job before the game and didn't actually check all the balls, that he missed one that he should have caught. I have to imagine that checking the inflation of footballs is not something most refs enjoy and that maybe they do a half-assed job once in a while. I think it's possible, but less likely, that a Colts staffer, having heard something around the club about the team's issues with the Pats, tried to help their cause by letting a little more air out of a ball that seemed (to him) low to start with. I think it's least likely that the Patriots had a walking conspiracy to illegally deflate balls after they checked by the refs, but could only manage to let a noticeable amount of air out of one of a dozen footballs.

I also think that most people heard the initial, erroneous story that all of the balls were underinflated -- a story that we now know came from the Colts, and formed their views that the Patriots were cheating, big-time, and that -- even if they actually heard this was wrong -- stuck with the narrative and conclusion ("the Patriots cheated!") they had already formed. So, bravo to the Colts.

To my mind, the really weird fact is that only one ball was significantly deflated. If you like conspiracies, then it should be easy to do something with the fact that the only flat ball was the only ball the Colts handled. I generally think that people are more incompetent than evil. But for that one ball, I think the Pats staff was trying to give the refs balls at the legal minimum because that's what Brady liked, that the ref checked them, and that one or both did their job poorly and ended up with footballs that were just below the minimum.
If this is all true, why didn't Brady cooperate with the investigation? Turn over his cell phone and email records when asked?

To me, that's the gravest misconduct here. The league asks you to cooperate with an investigation? You cooperate. You don't? You get suspended if they find stuff that walks like a duck and talks like a duck.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:19 PM   #84
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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If this is all true, why didn't Brady cooperate with the investigation? Turn over his cell phone and email records when asked?

To me, that's the gravest misconduct here. The league asks you to cooperate with an investigation? You cooperate. You don't? You get suspended if they find stuff that walks like a duck and talks like a duck.
That seems unfair to the ducks, who are beautiful, peace-loving creatures.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:36 PM   #85
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) View Post
Really? Up until this I could at least respect a different view. But the key piece of evidence is were the balls actually deflated. We know Brady wants them at 12.5, which is legal. And we know the ideal gas law is legal. But all of that doesn't matter because of a bunch of texts? If the balls were at 12.5 and you had all these texts you seem to be saying "still a cheater". I don't get that.

And it's not "somebody's recollection". It's the ref who measured the balls. If you don't want to believe his recollection regarding the gauge, why do you believe his recollection that he actually tested every ball to be 12.5? Although maybe you're saying that if the Patriots provided him with balls that were 11.9 and he failed to catch that with his gauge, they also are guilty of cheating.

Even dopers get a better chance than this - if the A sample is positive and the B sample negative then no violation. I guess you'd be fine suspending them.
I've heard the Pats hired a equipment guy from the Toronto Argos. Maybe this is all a metric system mix up?
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:42 PM   #86
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I think the ref measured them, or most of them, and thought that they met the minimum requirements. I think the guy then took a leak before he brought the balls to the field. When the balls were measured at halftime, they were measured with another gauge that gave lower readings, so that balls that were intentionally deflated to the minimum level on a first gauge were seen to be underinflated.
I heard a similar game plan from a drunk driving defense chat at the Macomb County Bar Association monthly meeting. Blame the equipment.
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Old 05-14-2015, 10:52 PM   #87
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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That seems unfair to the ducks, who are beautiful, peace-loving creatures.
But not Canadian geese. Those fuckers are the worst. Are they still protected? Assholes. Who shit everywhere. And they fucking bite. I've never hunted in my life but I would have no problem taking out a Canadian goose.
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Old 05-14-2015, 11:33 PM   #88
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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If this is all true, why didn't Brady cooperate with the investigation? Turn over his cell phone and email records when asked?

To me, that's the gravest misconduct here. The league asks you to cooperate with an investigation? You cooperate. You don't? You get suspended if they find stuff that walks like a duck and talks like a duck.
Seriously? No. Way. If I didn't do anything wrong and someone who works for my employer wants to go through my cell phone records and email and whatever else, they can go pound sand. Who knows what unrelated stuff he has there that he doesn't want people to see?
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Old 05-15-2015, 12:41 AM   #89
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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I thought your backflips were amusing at first. Now they just seem pathetic.
I have to say that I haven't been reading Burger's and Ty's posts as overly defensive on this topic. But maybe that's just because I inadvertently engaged a rabid Patriots fan on this topic and this was the result:
Quote:
rabid pats fan (rpf): [stuff about Beckham]

ncs: [stuff about Beckham] How many games do you think Brady will actually miss? Any?

rpf: none

rpf: I've read the report twice. it's shit.

ncs: those texts were pretty embarrassing for him. ha ha.

rpf: for who?

ncs: Brady. Those guys do not like him. They think he's a total douche.

rpf: eh...in the heat of the game who isn''t? two jabronis on text. whatever. there's nothing there and its not going to stand. I could run diown the holes for an hour

rpf: the hilarious thing about the report is that it unknowingly has the Colts admitting to cheating

rpf: p 35 footnote 11 regarding official rules of preparation of balls: The guidelines stated that: “Prior to each game, a team‟s equipment manager will prepare 12 footballs to be used for non-kicking downs. The footballs will have the prior approval of the team‟s quarterback, who can briefly test them the preceding week, but the balls cannot be used during midweek or pregame practice sessions.

rpf: p 41 footnote 21: During our investigation, we also obtained information concerning the football preparation process used by the Colts. Colts personnel informed us that, like the Patriots, they take new footballs and rub them with a wet or warm towel to remove the outer preservative, followed by brushing with the same brushes provided by Wilson. Footballs are then used during practice, with the expectation that normal wear and tear on the footballs, and their interaction with players‟ sweat, will help break in the balls. Sean Sullivan, the Colts Equipment Manager, explained that, in his view, the best way to soften the leather is for the footballs to interact with sweat during practice and then get baked in the sun. The Colts repeat the brushing and baking process, and continue to practice with the footballs as they are broken in, until they reach a certain point, when they will be set aside for potential game use.

rpf: So there you go...the rules explicitly state that you can't use balls used in practice for the game and then here we have the Colts admitting that they use the balls in practice for games
Oy. Really my level of engagement on this issue is that I sort of enjoy watching Tom be embarrassed. I'm glad that I'll never be that person who is double-checking and quoting footnotes of official NFL reports.

Relatedly, have you guys ever looked at yourteamcheats.com? That's a lot of research and cataloging.
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:28 AM   #90
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Re: No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

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Seriously? No. Way. If I didn't do anything wrong and someone who works for my employer wants to go through my cell phone records and email and whatever else, they can go pound sand. Who knows what unrelated stuff he has there that he doesn't want people to see?

Yes, seriously.

This isn't his employer. This is the NFL. And I believe being helpful during an investigation is part of the players standards of conduct. And if it's not, it should be.
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