No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

No question Brady could have played this a hell of a lot better, and remained on much higher ground than he clearly is. But I'm not sure the above works - he could say "I like 'em deflated" (just like Aaron rodgers likes them hard) but the "below league standards" part doesn't work because the refs are supposed to check them. So he'd have to say something like "I like 'em soft and that's what we submit for approval before the game - I figure that if they somehow end up below the limits the refs will take care of that."

I wasn't trying to be very technical. I agree.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/sho...postcount=3466

http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/sho...postcount=3467

http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/sho...postcount=3468

http://www.lawtalkers.com/forums/sho...postcount=3469

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

We should watch pre-game together. . . . I want to destroy everything within 30 feet when this happens.

TM

Confidential to ncs: maybe it's best to politely decline his offer.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Confidential to ncs: maybe it's best to politely decline his offer.

Confidential to Flower:

1. I can totally read that.
2. I guess it depends on one's definition of "destroy." Although, either way, it might be best to stay away.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Brady probably didn't produce everything because he didn't have to. There is definitely something damning he left out. If he did produce everything, there is absolutely no reason to destroy his phone the day before or day of his meeting with Wells. And if you buy that "I destroy my phone every 4 months and it just so happens that it was that phone's time to go" bullshit, then I don't know what to say.

If they didn't actually ask him to turn over the phone, then whacking him on the appeal for destroying the phone is pretty ridiculous. A lot of people are assuming that they asked for the phone and so he destroyed it, which is the impression the NFL is trying to leave.

Goodell is completely full of shit. Wells, although thorough, left a hole big enough for the Patriots to drive a truck through, but Goodell can't give the golden boy a pass because he's already mucked up so much over the last few years. And the other owners will be furious because everyone knows he and Kraft are close and Brady is the face of the league.

Are you joking? All of his public statements have been so over-the-top ridiculous ("I'll just stand over here and wait for an apology from Goodell, the league, the USFL, the CFL, the Arena football league, and the XFL") that he's come off as a truly pretentious billionaire, out of touch with anyone without access to his luxury box.

If you think Brady is lying (and you do), then this follows. If you see a pattern of NFL people leaking misinformation about this matter to the press and the league doing nothing to correct it, then maybe you can see Kraft's view that the league has no evidence and is not willing to say that because they want to look tough (as you just said).

If this is what turns you off, I'm shocked.

They've been losing me for years.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

On this, in Ty's words, Sally Jenkins has my proxy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...0ee_story.html

Yes, that's good. I agree with this:

Look, there is no doubt Brady expressed his preference for a softer ball to the Patriots’ equipment people. All quarterbacks are neurotics on that score, and equipment managers would feel obliged to please. But that is quite different from an orchestrated criminal-level “scheme.”

From my own experience doing investigations, when faced with incomplete evidence and a whiff that something is not right, it is very easy and totally human to concluded that you are facing a conspiracy, but it very often turns out that -- even if someone is doing something wrong -- you are seeing instead the results of screw-ups and errors of different sorts.

eta: Also, I agree with what Burger said to TM's question.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You really believe that a professional quarterback doesn't know the difference between a regulation ball and one that is underinflated? There's some willful ignorance going on here, and I'm not sure if it's you or (if you're right) Brady. But willful ignorance is the absolute best you're gonna do. I just don't think someone who has dedicated his life to football does not know exactly what is going on with the footballs he plays with every day of his life.

Hell, I don't play basketball professionally, but I can instantly tell you whenever a ball is underinflated without even bouncing it.

TM

We're talking about the difference between 12.5 psi and maybe 12.0 psi. I'm not sure a QB will be able to tell the difference except by A-B comparison - I just don't know. Sure, if it's 8psi anyone could tell that, but based on the actual pressures of the balls at halftime they weren't super low. Plus, given the variation between them, wouldn't that be an issue if .5psi were clear? It's not like baseball where they keep tossing back balls to the ump - he's stuck with whichever of the 12 the ball boys toss for the next play.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Confidential to ncs: maybe it's best to politely decline his offer.

Confidential to flower: Thanks for looking out for me.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by notcasesensitive

[SIZE="1"]Confidential to flower:

I just hope tonight is not the night Bilmore comes back

[Icky Thump]

If this is Cespedes' translator, Yo no habla Engles.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If they didn't actually ask him to turn over the phone, then whacking him on the appeal for destroying the phone is pretty ridiculous. A lot of people are assuming that they asked for the phone and so he destroyed it, which is the impression the NFL is trying to leave.

Agreed. Although, I think Brady and his people are not stupid. He destroyed the phone just in case.

As I said before, I think both sides are lying their asses off. You and Burger are homers, so you are completely focused on the fucked up process. That's fine. But Brady absolutely did it. You don't want to believe that? Okay. But I think you're nuts if you don't think Brady knew his guys were deflating balls against the rules. He thought it was no big deal and then, all of a sudden, it was. And he feels like that isn't fair since it wasn't for so long.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you think Brady is lying (and you do), then this follows. If you see a pattern of NFL people leaking misinformation about this matter to the press and the league doing nothing to correct it, then maybe you can see Kraft's view that the league has no evidence and is not willing to say that because they want to look tough (as you just said).

If you think Kraft is so stupid that he completely trusts that Brady knew nothing, then I don't know what to say. You're right in that I think he thinks the evidence sucks. And you're right to think that he thinks the NFL is being unfair. But this holier-than-thou attitude over this issue when he's had dozens of athletes tell him to his face that they had clean hands over the years only to be exposed later (including a fucking murderer), is absolutely ridiculous. And the flames of that attitude are fanned by arrogance only a douchebag billionaire asshole can produce.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

They've been losing me for years.

Fair enough.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Yes, that's good. I agree with this:

Jenkins: 'Look, there is no doubt Brady expressed his preference for a softer ball to the Patriots’ equipment people. All quarterbacks are neurotics on that score, and equipment managers would feel obliged to please. But that is quite different from an orchestrated criminal-level “scheme.”'

Yes. Of course you do. Because it's stated in a completely ridiculous way.

Brady wants his balls softer than regs allow. He bitches when they're not. He expects his guys to handle it. He either tells them that he expects them to handle it or he looks the other way when they do. He rewards them either way. That's the entirety of the "criminal-level scheme." Calling it that sure makes it sound so much different than it actually is.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

eta: Also, I agree with what Burger said to TM's question.

No shit. Of course you do.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

We're talking about the difference between 12.5 psi and maybe 12.0 psi. I'm not sure a QB will be able to tell the difference except by A-B comparison - I just don't know. Sure, if it's 8psi anyone could tell that, but based on the actual pressures of the balls at halftime they weren't super low. Plus, given the variation between them, wouldn't that be an issue if .5psi were clear? It's not like baseball where they keep tossing back balls to the ump - he's stuck with whichever of the 12 the ball boys toss for the next play.

Look, at this point, I no longer even know which numbers you're looking at. I'm not even gonna go into the text messages we actually have. If you believe Brady can't tell the difference between a ball that is under or over what he likes, then okay. We're not gonna get anywhere.

TM

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Look, at this point, I no longer even know which numbers you're looking at. I'm not even gonna go into the text messages we actually have. If you believe Brady can't tell the difference between a ball that is under or over what he likes, then okay. We're not gonna get anywhere.

TM

The unreliable ones, not the falsely leaked ones. Those ranged from 10.5 to 12.3, with most measurements in the mid/high 11s.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

As I said before, I think both sides are lying their asses off. You and Burger are homers, so you are completely focused on the fucked up process. That's fine. But Brady absolutely did it. You don't want to believe that? Okay. But I think you're nuts if you don't think Brady knew his guys were deflating balls against the rules. He thought it was no big deal and then, all of a sudden, it was. And he feels like that isn't fair since it wasn't for so long.

What I think is more likely is that (a) different gauges give different readings, as the Wells Report says (although it just picks the readings least favorable to Brady), and (b) Brady likes his balls less inflated, and made sure the equipment guys knew that, and while he may not have told them to break the rules, they were more interested in keeping him happy than in strict compliance with the NFL rules.

Unless I missing something, which is possible, I think the reason you think Brady was engaged in huge cheating is the NFL's and/or Colts' leak to Mortensen and his story -- false, but repeated widely and unrebutted by the NFL, and so very successful in creating the narrative that has followed.