Still Hating America.

[andViolins]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I don't think Imus is an asshole. He's doing the same thing Howard and Opie and Anthony do. The only difference is, he held himself out as some higher brow form of the medium. It is not insignificant in his demise that Imus was incorrectly thought to be a conservative by many of the people calling for his head.

Its funny that you write this. And perhaps you never listened to Imus years ago. Many, many years ago. His schtick was Moby Worm attacking a different high school each morning. Or the goofball reverand making fun of people from th south. Or fart jokes. Imus was anyting but high-brow. He somehow recreated his online personality to be a radio guy talking politics. But it used the same inane humor (calling Richardson a "fat sissy" or Powell a "weasel") as before, and the I-Man was certainly the same condescending idiot that he was before. High brow indeed.

aV

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I'm angry at Al and Jesse for being worthless racists who make their money dividing people.

I'm not sure that Sharpton and Jackson are "racists," but their game is certainly tired, and it's not clear to me why anyone cares what they think. If you don't like Sharpton's role in this fiasco, don't you have to blame Imus? Didn't he go to Sharpton? Not that I watch TV news much, but I read that you didn't see any black women being asked to comment on what Imus said about black women. Which is odd, because it's not like calling the team "hos" instead of "nappy-headed hos" would have been a huge step up.

Imus was a fool for what he said, but unless you have shit for brains, you recognize the context in which it was spoken was a poor - very poor - attempt at humor. Is it arguable Imus is a racist? Yes, but I don't think that's winnable. I think he's an idiot shock jock.

Who cares whether he's a racist? The point isn't what lump of coal or Ivory soap lies within his heart. It's what he said. It's offensive and embarrassing, and once you call attention to it you can understand why advertisers don't want to be a part of it.

Nifong's just appalling. What he did is just fucking wrong. I stand corrected; he's worse than Al, Jesse and Don put together.

I don't know the facts of the case very well and am not particularly inclined to defend Nifong, but what surprises me is that people think that what he did is so much worse than what prosecutors do every day. The big difference here is that the people who got nailed are privileged Duke students who can afford good lawyers and find friends in the media. Same facts, same situation, but it happens to a fraternity at Prairie View instead of the lacrosse team at Duke, and do you think anyone even notices?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't know the facts of the case very well and am not particularly inclined to defend Nifong, but what surprises me is that people think that what he did is so much worse than what prosecutors do every day. The big difference here is that the people who got nailed are privileged Duke students who can afford good lawyers and find friends in the media. Same facts, same situation, but it happens to a fraternity at Prairie View instead of the lacrosse team at Duke, and do you think anyone even notices?

If it happens at Prairie View then I'm guessing he's not going public for political gain. The same thing at Duke is what outrages you about the USA "firings"--it had the appearance of being done primarily for political reasons. To be sure, prosecutors often bring weak cases for no reason other than they see the evidence as being sufficient for conviction. Nifong could well have done that, especially at the early stages. The difference is that he came out almost immediately in public to the press to convict them, and then backed himself into a political/PR corner where he couldnt' easily drop the charges once it became clear the evidence was extremely weak if not in fact exonerating. So in the 999 other instances where a prosecutor rushes to judgment he can drop the charges much more gracefully. Nifong failed on that.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm not sure that Sharpton and Jackson are "racists," but their game is certainly tired, and it's not clear to me why anyone cares what they think.

Yet they do. The mafia's game is tired, but people still listen to what the think.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't know the facts of the case very well and am not particularly inclined to defend Nifong, but what surprises me is that people think that what he did is so much worse than what prosecutors do every day. The big difference here is that the people who got nailed are privileged Duke students who can afford good lawyers and find friends in the media. Same facts, same situation, but it happens to a fraternity at Prairie View instead of the lacrosse team at Duke, and do you think anyone even notices?

My recollection was that it was Nifong that took it to the press initially. Which he would not have done had they not been privileged white kids.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Adder
My recollection was that it was Nifong that took it to the press initially. Which he would not have done had they not been privileged white kids.

I think by "white" you mean "Duke". Nifong probably would have been just as all over this if a couple of black guys on the basketball team had been accused.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If you don't like Sharpton's role in this fiasco, don't you have to blame Imus? Didn't he go to Sharpton?

Who cares whether he's a racist? The point isn't what lump of coal or Ivory soap lies within his heart. It's what he said. It's offensive and embarrassing, and once you call attention to it you can understand why advertisers don't want to be a part of it.

I don't know the facts of the case very well and am not particularly inclined to defend Nifong, but what surprises me is that people think that what he did is so much worse than what prosecutors do every day. The big difference here is that the people who got nailed are privileged Duke students who can afford good lawyers and find friends in the media. Same facts, same situation, but it happens to a fraternity at Prairie View instead of the lacrosse team at Duke, and do you think anyone even notices?

a. I'm talking about the right and wrong of the thing, not the wisdom or strategy. You're right that Imus fucked up by going to Sharpton, but Sharpton baited him. Sharpton set the trap and Imus was very stupid. That makes Sharpton clever. A very clever scumbag.

b. It matters whether he's racist because the comments were not really all that incendiary unless you bought into the notion that he was making them in a racist fashion or becuase he is a racist. The only way Sharpton could make the comments a controversy was by labeling them racist. Advertisers weren't going anywhere until the word "racism" came into the picture and Al and Jesse got involved. Jesse called Proctor & Gamble, threatened the company (as he's done before) and they yanked ads. Then all the other advertisers followed suit. Imus never got to make the "I was offensive, but not racist" defense in any meaningful forum because Sharpton moved the controversy at a hyperfast speed, knowing he had little time in which to nail Imus before the public lost interest. Again, Al and Jesse were masters of their trade here.

c. I think the facts you cite are exactly why Nifong is so fucking appalling. Imagine he did what he did to kids without the money those three had. There's no room for opportunism in a proecutor's office. The law is filled with self-interested people with bad (if any) moral compasses. We trust people like Nifong to be above it - that when they move to take a person's liberty and ruin his life, they only do so if they are sure they have a case. Nifong did what he did to prey on the Black community in Durhma to get votes, and in doing so, ripped apart the lives of three innocent people (that they were of means does not make it ok) and tore the community apart. He did exactly what Jesse and Al do, but they're just charalatans nobody but fools grant any credibility. Nifong was a prosecutor. This is a guy who had the power to push for death sentences in capital cases. If he did this in the Duke case, how many other iffy cases do you think he's brought to conviction? I wonder how many people are wrongly in cells right now because of this man.

They should hang people for doing what he did. It's that wrong.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
If it happens at Prairie View then I'm guessing he's not going public for political gain. The same thing at Duke is what outrages you about the USA "firings"--it had the appearance of being done primarily for political reasons. To be sure, prosecutors often bring weak cases for no reason other than they see the evidence as being sufficient for conviction. Nifong could well have done that, especially at the early stages. The difference is that he came out almost immediately in public to the press to convict them, and then backed himself into a political/PR corner where he couldnt' easily drop the charges once it became clear the evidence was extremely weak if not in fact exonerating. So in the 999 other instances where a prosecutor rushes to judgment he can drop the charges much more gracefully. Nifong failed on that.

I don't think that Nifong or any other prosecutor should be taking their cases to the press. But it happens constantly, and is the result of a symbiotic relationship between prosecutors, many of whom are elected or have political aspirations, and the media, which loves crime stories. So I'm not sure that what Nifong did is all that different from a lot of other prosecutors do.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
a. I'm talking about the right and wrong of the thing, not the wisdom or strategy. You're right that Imus fucked up by going to Sharpton, but Sharpton baited him. Sharpton set the trap and Imus was very stupid. That makes Sharpton clever. A very clever scumbag.

b. It matters whether he's racist because the comments were not really all that incendiary unless you bought into the notion that he was making them in a racist fashion or becuase he is a racist. The only way Sharpton could make the comments a controversy was by labeling them racist. Advertisers weren't going anywhere until the word "racism" came into the picture and Al and Jesse got involved. Jesse called Proctor & Gamble, threatened the company (as he's done before) and they yanked ads. Then all the other advertisers followed suit. Imus never got to make the "I was offensive, but not racist" defense in any meaningful forum because Sharpton moved the controversy at a hyperfast speed, knowing he had little time in which to nail Imus before the public lost interest. Again, Al and Jesse were masters of their trade here.

c. I think the facts you cite are exactly why Nifong is so fucking appalling. Imagine he did what he did to kids without the money those three had. There's no room for opportunism in a proecutor's office. The law is filled with self-interested people with bad (if any) moral compasses. We trust people like Nifong to be above it - that when they move to take a person's liberty and ruin his life, they only do so if they are sure they have a case. Nifong did what he did to prey on the Black community in Durhma to get votes, and in doing so, ripped apart the lives of three innocent people (that they were of means does not make it ok) and tore the community apart. He did exactly what Jesse and Al do, but they're just charalatans nobody but fools grant any credibility. Nifong was a prosecutor. This is a guy who had the power to push for death sentences in capital cases. If he did this in the Duke case, how many other iffy cases do you think he's brought to conviction? I wonder how many people are wrongly in cells right now because of this man.

They should hang people for doing what he did. It's that wrong.

maybe imus' bosses directed him to Big al's show. but look at it this way--- going to Al didn't help Michael Richards and didn't help save Imus, so the next celeb that pops up would be absolutely nuts to go to Al. he shot his load.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't think that Nifong or any other prosecutor should be taking their cases to the press. But it happens constantly, and is the result of a symbiotic relationship between prosecutors, many of whom are elected or have political aspirations, and the media, which loves crime stories. So I'm not sure that what Nifong did is all that different from a lot of other prosecutors do.

You're the oddest pragmatist I know. On one hand, you espouse liberal views, which stand for the notion that the govt can and will do a better job than the marketplace. On the other hand, you condone the govt acting in a fashion consistent with the marketplace's lowest corruptions.

That it happens all the time is an observation, not an excuse.

Who's the liberal here and who's the libertarian?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Sharpton set the trap and Imus was very stupid. That makes Sharpton clever. A very clever scumbag.

I don't watch TV programs that interview Sharpton. If everyone did like me, the man would be a broken shell of his current clever, scummy self.

b. It matters whether he's racist because the comments were not really all that incendiary unless you bought into the notion that he was making them in a racist fashion or becuase he is a racist.

I completely disagree. What he said about the team was awful. I don't care about whether some guy I don't know is a racist. I do care about the content of what he says on the radio.

The only way Sharpton could make the comments a controversy was by labeling them racist. Advertisers weren't going anywhere until the word "racism" came into the picture and Al and Jesse got involved. jesse called Proctor & Gamble, threatened the company (as he's done before) and they yanked ads. Then all the other advertisers followed suit.

Maybe I followed a different controversy, but I didn't ever see Jackson or Sharpton. I saw a controversy fueled by the continuing stories about past things that Imus said, like about Gwen Ifill, and by people asking the many politicians and journalists who go on his show whether and how they would continue to ignore the guy's unsavory side.

I think the facts you cite are exactly why Nifong is so fucking appalling. Imagine he did what he did to kids without the money those three had. There's no room for opportunism in a prosecutor's office. The law is filled with self-interested people with bad (if any) moral compasses. We trust people like Nifong to be above it - that when they move to take a person's liberty and ruin his life, they only do so if they are sure they have a case.

Do you not think this shit happens all the time? When you read about criminal cases in the press, where do you think the journalists are getting their info? Nine times out of ten, it's the prosecutors. If the prosecutors stopped talking to the press, the press would have go and actually do some reporting, and prosecutors would have to find another way to get sympathetic coverage.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
maybe imus' bosses directed him to Big al's show. but look at it this way--- going to Al didn't help Michael Richards and didn't help save Imus, so the next celeb that pops up would be absolutely nuts to go to Al. he shot his load.

Al's the PT Barnum of race-baiting. If we judge his likely longevity against the decades long career of Jesse, I'd say he's got a whole lot more load to shoot...

All over America's face.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
You're the oddest pragmatist I know. On one hand, you espouse liberal views, which stand for the notion that the govt can and will do a better job than the marketplace. On the other hand, you condone the govt acting in a fashion consistent with the marketplace's lowest corruptions.

That it happens all the time is an observation, not an excuse.

I agree completely. I'm not condoning Nifong at all. I'm surprised that people are so astonished that a prosecutor would take a one-sided account of a pending criminal matter to the press so as to exploit the attention for political purposes. Hello? If we really wanted prosecutors to act impartially, we'd given them something like life tenure, like judges.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I completely disagree. What he said about the team was awful. I don't care about whether some guy I don't know is a racist. I do care about the content of what he says on the radio.

It showed a cruelty, and poisoned heart. Here are these young women (aren't some of them white BTW) who bust their ass and have this magic season. now here's the thing, women's b-ball players are already fighting to have credibility (and probably avoid lesbian stereotypes) and more people hear about them from Imus' hate than probably watched the game. I never liked him, but never before saw that he's such a hateful shit AND no Howard would never have made a parallel comment.

Do you not think this shit happens all the time? When you read about criminal cases in the press, where do you think the journalists are getting their info? Nine times out of ten, it's the prosecutors.

You make so many positive statements like this across all sorts of areas. you can't possibly have personal experience in all these areas, do you? How many of these are what you've read or heard?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Do you not think this shit happens all the time? When you read about criminal cases in the press, where do you think the journalists are getting their info? Nine times out of ten, it's the prosecutors. If the prosecutors stopped talking to the press, the press would have go and actually do some reporting, and prosecutors would have to find another way to get sympathetic coverage.

It does happen all the time. That's irrelevant. It's wrong, and we should hang the bastards who engage in it. You're talking about the state taking people's liberty. Do you know how scary that shit is? Have you defended a person accused by the state, facing years in jail? This isn't fucking melodrama. Nifong has done something horrible here.

BTW, I defended people accused of what some call "white collar crime" for two years. I'm quite aware of the press and what proecutors say to the press. Watch a client get sentenced to 30 years and tell me if you're such a pragmatist about this sort of thing.