We are all Slave now.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Yeah. Of course it didn't. Color me shocked.

Look, it is almost impossible to talk to white people about racism. I sit on 3 different diversity organizations. Every single time white people are in the room, a conversation about racism, the effects of racism, steps to fix it, devolves into a conversation about white people's good intentions, feelings about being in the vicinity of racism, their meager upbringing, whatever. It makes it completely impossible to discuss the actual effects of their racism. People who are trying to address racism spend most of their time helping white people with their feelings and ensuring them that they aren't bad people. White people (on the whole) cannot have a conversation about racism.

Like I said, I have been struggling with this phenomenon for quite some time, as have many (actual) prominent people in the diversity field. Focusing on unconscious bias, confirmation bias, etc. is strategic because the message is, "Hey, shhhhh, it's not really your fault. But let's see how we can get past this." And it's because when you say to a white person, "Black people at this firm aren't being given the same opportunities. We need to do this that and the other." All they hear is "You're a racist," and that's that. Conversation effectively over.

And liberals and progressives benefit from racism and actively fight changing societal dynamics that grant them those benefits. As long as they can tell themselves that they aren't part of the problem or would never use a racial slur, they let themselves off the hook. Once again, when they are faced with how they benefit, they completely disconnect from the conversation. I've gone into the examples a million times on this board.

But enough of this. Your post is annoying in that you point out a bunch of stuff you disagree with but never actually say anything. So, if you want to have a conversation, I suggest you do more than sit there and shit on the article without offering even a little bit of insight into why what you are quoting is incorrect or what you think is or isn't "helpful."

TM

My biggest feelings about race these days aren't actually about public policy. I hate the stuff the Trumpsters are doing with a passion, I can't stand a lot of the way the discussion is had in public, I am willing to give a loud Amen to just about every complaint anyone here has. But those complaints aren't what really gets me.

My biggest feelings on race are all about the hiring and promotion process, because I've invested heavily in a number of very talented minority lawyers and they have been important to my practice and I am watching them get the shaft in their practice and work life every day. Some of them have moved to larger firms where they deal with a whole range of challenges, some of them still work for us and I can help with some but not all of their challenges, most of them they have to deal with themselves, and some have gone inhouse, where, frankly, there seems to be the lowest bullshit quotient over race. But the challenges and barriers thrown up are annoyingly persistent through the day and night for them (and as a result me) and come from progressives, liberals, conservatives, what have you. There are some conservatives who deal with diversity on a one-on-one level better than most progressives. But it is rage over the workplace shit that most upsets me.

And I don't have to deal with the shit these folks get outside of work, that's stuff I just hear about. And the stuff at work I deal with second hand, not first, of course.

But here's the question I have, sparked by that article: why aren't more white people in a rage over this? Is it because the only people they've actually invested in are white like them? Because we all invest in other folks in some way.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

By most definitions I'm a white progressive. Are white progressives, more part of the problem than conservatives? I doubt that. I don't see a lot of white progressives proffering blatant disenfranchisement legislation on the state voting rolls. I don't see white progressives repealing health care which reached minorities in record numbers.

YOU GUYS ARE FOCUSING TOO MUCH ON THIS PIECE OF THE ARTICLE.

Arguments can be made that from redistricting of schools to how the Justice system is set up to keep police from ever being accountable to how real estate agents steer people to certain neighborhoods, to a thousand different subtle things, etc., that you are wrong. But if you read that article and come away wanting to discuss why white progressives (i.e., you) aren't the worst problem, then I have to wonder if we read two different articles.

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

Thurgreed: Although I generally align with white progressives, here is where I have some serious problems: Microagressions....slights so small one must hire an expert to point them out.

Spoken like someone who has never spent a considerable amount of time in the minority.

Let me tell you something as the only black guy in the room throughout school and my career almost ALL the time. Constant micro-aggressions are fucking exhausting. Whoever gave them that name did the concept a real disservice. When I went to school, in a 3 hour span, I may have heard:

"What part of the ghetto did you grow up in?"
"Can I touch your hair?" [Back when I had it, and no, it isn't just women who experience this.]
"Wow, how did you get in to such a good school?"
"Excuse me, sir, are you in the right place?" for the 40th day in a rowfrom a security guard as white person after white person flies by.
"Are you a member of this gym?"
"Wow. A platinum card. Can I see your ID?" while no one else gets asked for ID.

All micro-aggressions. And that is the absolute smallest slice of examples I can cut. They might seem small, but let me tell you something, they make you want to commit murder after hearing them day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year your entire fucking life.

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

Trigger warnings. Safe spaces. Shouting down conservative speakers. These are used, particularly on college campuses by both white progressives, and minorities.

This is the holy grail of white people who want to throw up their hands and say, "Minorities and liberals are out of control!"

Yeah. Some college campuses are struggling with this. But I hear about this bullshit out of the mouths of white people more than I hear about examples of actual racism. It is such a small problem relative to the overwhelming issues related to racism that it amazes me when otherwise smart, informed people act like it's going to destroy the world.

I went to a small liberal arts school in the early 90s. We had many similar problems then that you are describing now. A lot of it is ridiculous. Shouting down speakers? Ridiculous. Safe spaces? Do you know what this means? Is it okay for people who are in an extreme minority to have a place to go where they feel safe and comforted? Sure. Is it overdone on campuses? Maybe. Have you ever encountered someone demanding one? No. Just fucking stop it. Trigger warnings? Yeah, I've heard of it. Do I know anyone who has ever been anywhere that requires a trigger warning or was it in some article that I read as an example of things just going way in the wrong direction.

All of these examples are used to reduce and diminish the experience of people of color. It's the same as when "Political correctness is out of control" was the exasperation of the day. Citing these examples is a tactic designed to let white people who don't really give a shit off the hook. And it makes them feel better about themselves.

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

I find these both offensive and counterproductive. So do my views on this make me worse than, to tear a page from today's truly hilarious news, Jason Spenser?

No. But go buy the book.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Pun intended?



I hear you. Thanks for taking up the challenge here.



I don't disagree at all.



Ditto.



OK.



Hey, I tried to say that there were things about the article that I liked and things I disagreed with. I'm not arguing about the message -- I'm just surprised that you would say it's the best thing you've read on racism since college, because that sounds like a pretty high bar. So here were my criticisms, with some more explanation:

"how society is set up"

No one "set up" society. Racism is the product of a whole bunch of individuals actions and choices. While it is helpful to get people to realize that racism is systematic and pervasive, talking at this level of generality can become a substitute for illustrating the subject in a concrete way. (Maybe this is just the reviewer's gloss on a book that does the letter.) I want to hear more specifics about how and why people do and think what they do and think. Hearing that society is set up to be racist is about as helpful as Sebby explaining that we are all responsible for the rise of Trump.

"white progressives cause the most daily damage to people of color"

I don't think it's true. As I was saying to GGG, I think white progressives can be maddening, because one expects more help and less resistance, but I think Trump voters do more daily damage. For example, Trump voters and the officials they elected are splitting up refugee families. Obama was far from perfect, but he was better on that score.

white racism as "a pathogen that seeks to replicate itself"

From a history of ideas perspective, I'm interested in the way that beliefs evolve. But. If the central problem addressed by the book and the review is that white liberals are in denial about their racism, then talking about racism as a sort of independent agent that goes around infecting people is just another way of letting them off the hooks for their choices, actions and beliefs. To my mind, I prefer the approach of Gordon Allport's Prejudice, which talks about prejudice (or racism, if you will) as thoughts and beliefs that the result of the way everyone thinks.

I wrote my college thesis about racism and the way that it did and did not affect government policy in a particular case, so I guess I am repeating ideas that I have worked over a lot in the last many years.

I'll have to respond tomorrow. I gotta run to a meeting.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Spoken like someone who has never spent a considerable amount of time in the minority.

Let me tell you something as the only black guy in the room throughout school and my career almost ALL the time. Constant micro-aggressions are fucking exhausting. Whoever gave them that name did the concept a real disservice. When I went to school, in a 3 hour span, I may have heard:

"What part of the ghetto did you grow up in?"
"Can I touch your hair?" [Back when I had it, and no, it isn't just women who experience this.]
"Wow, how did you get in to such a good school?"
"Excuse me, sir, are you in the right place?" for the 40th day in a rowfrom a security guard as white person after white person flies by.
"Are you a member of this gym?"
"Wow. A platinum card. Can I see your ID?" while no one else gets asked for ID.

All micro-aggressions. And that is the absolute smallest slice of examples I can cut. They might seem small, but let me tell you something, they make you want to commit murder after hearing them day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year your entire fucking life.

Do me a favor everyone (not just TM).

There are 100 of these things I can identify that drive me batty when I see them happen. But I'm sure there are some I do unconsciously. Everyone feel free to clobber me when I do one of these.

But, TM, what kind of fool pays for a platinum card?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

This is the holy grail of white people who want to throw up their hands and say, "Minorities and liberals are out of control!"

Yeah. Some college campuses are struggling with this. But I hear about this bullshit out of the mouths of white people more than I hear about examples of actual racism. It is such a small problem relative to the overwhelming issues related to racism that it amazes me when otherwise smart, informed people act like it's going to destroy the world.

All of these examples are used to reduce and diminish the experience of people of color. It's the same as when "Political correctness is out of control" was the exasperation of the day. Citing these examples is a tactic designed to let white people who don't really give a shit off the hook. And it makes them feel better about themselves.

I seriously have to question anyone who wants to talk about PC on college campuses, and who does not actually spend time on college campuses (ahem, Jonathan Chait). It is such a non-problem for the rest of society, and it is a diversion from what matters, not to mention a marketing scheme for right-wing provocateurs. And if someone does spend time on a college campus and does not focus first on fraternity drinking, which actually kills people all the time, their priorities are seriously out of whack.

But go buy the book.

Have you read the book, or just the review?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I can see why that would be highly frustrating.

eta: In the spirit of being constructive and trying to find solutions, I just read a fantastic book called the High Growth Handbook, by Elad Gil. I'm sure it's much more relevant to my work than most other people here, but if it sounds like the sort of thing that would interest you then you should check it out. Anyway, in that book is an interview with a woman named Joelle Emerson, whom I don't think I knew anything about previously. That interview was really good. I lent my copy o the book to our CEO but TM I will make a copy of that interview and shoot it to you if you like. I am too new* at my current company to start telling other people how to hire, etc., but I am planning to look for more from Emerson and her outfit.

* For those of you familiar with my last shop, I have moved on to hopefully bigger and better things.

Apropos of which, this looks interesting.

[ferrets_bueller]

Thurgreed's reply to my post was interesting in several ways.


1. Yes, I did take away from the article that the author was calling out white progressives as the worst hindrances to minority advancement. We did read the same article with significantly different take-aways.



2. Thurgreed's examples of microaggressions were sobering. Point taken.


3. We will have to agree to disagree on the other politically correct nonsense. I believe the refutation of trigger warnings, safe spaces, and shouting down speakers of any stripe is important.



4. Read the book? I'll take another look at the article and decide. And for those of you who DIDN'T get my Jason Spenser reference, you must, immediately, go to you tube. If this slobbering moron isn't the stupidest hominid on the planet, I challenge you to tell me who is.

[Replaced_Texan]

I found this to be a really fascinating article on gender. There's so very much to unpack. Though there was a lot that was unsurprising. The article talks to four transmen about the differences they've encountered after transitioning from female to male. Since we're complex people, intersectionality is part of this, and the first dude who is black has a lot of interesting insight with regard to transitioning from black female to black male. The last dude is of Chinese descent, and he has some stuff to say about the cultural baggage associated with gender too.

This feature/bug, in particular, I find all the time in dudes, but I didn't realize was (possibly) a testosterone thing.

The hormones made me more impatient. I had lots of female friends and one of the qualities they loved about me was that I was a great listener. After being on testosterone, they informed me that my listening skills weren’t what they used to be. Here’s an example: I’m driving with one of my best friends, Beth, and I ask her “Is your sister meeting us for dinner?” Ten minutes later she’s still talking and I still have no idea if her sister is coming. So finally, I couldn’t take it anymore, and I snapped and said, “IS SHE COMING OR NOT?” And Beth was like, “You know, you used to like hearing all the backstory and how I’d get around to the answer. A lot of us have noticed you’ve become very impatient lately and we think it’s that damn testosterone!” It’s definitely true that some male behavior is governed by hormones. Instead of listening to a woman’s problem and being empathetic and nodding along, I would do the stereotypical guy thing — interrupt and provide a solution to cut the conversation short and move on. I’m trying to be better about this.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

I believe the refutation of trigger warnings, safe spaces, and shouting down speakers of any stripe is important.

Most of the people complaining about safe spaces have plenty of their own. Why do whites cluster among themselves so much? You know all those spaces white people cluster, whether country clubs, schools, churches, homes, those are safe spaces. For white people.

As to shouting people down, what do you think about the people who block the Westboro Baptist Church folks who protest at funerals and the like? Should they not shout them down and block them out? How much difference is there between Westboro and Milo or one of the other alt-right neo-Nazis? Is there any meaningful difference? They have a right to speak, but not a right to a platform at a particular place or to be able to shut down others who want to speak.

Sure, I believe in being civil, but there are times and places that call for incivility - blocking the Westboro Baptist Church protesters at funerals is clearly one. I don't think it's a bright line - who has been shut down whom you think is civil themselves, who wasn't going to, for example, call for the schools to exclude and not accept many of the people protesting? Maybe tell them they don't belong and should leave the country?

I also think incivility can backfire, which is why we've learned that the alt-right has paid people to dress up and cause problems at some of their talks. They live off that stuff.

As to trigger warnings, what, you don't want the TV shows to tell us when there is violence or nudity on a show? Think of the kids!

Bottom line: most of this stuff is overblown, often by people with an agenda for overblowing it. Don't react with a knee-jerk against all of it, think.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

3. We will have to agree to disagree on the other politically correct nonsense. I believe the refutation of trigger warnings, safe spaces, and shouting down speakers of any stripe is important.

"Important"? It seems like there are so many other more important things going on relative to ginned up outrage about events on college campuses. I mean, really?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller

Microaggressions....slights so small one must hire an expert to point them out.

Uh. Or ask a person of color. Don't get fooled by the term, the people who they are directed at notice.

Trigger warnings.

Yes, it is annoying to warn people about sensitive content they may wish to avoid. He said on a board with a tradition of spoiler alerts. You didn't want to know what's on last night's episode of Mad Men. Some people don't want to read about other people's trauma.

Safe spaces. Shouting down conservative speakers.

Conservatives want a safe space (i.e., not to get protested) on campus. Why doesn't that bother you?

Meanwhile, leftist faculty get fired, but there's no freakout about free speech over that.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

I found this to be a really fascinating article on gender. There's so very much to unpack. Though there was a lot that was unsurprising. The article talks to four transmen about the differences they've encountered after transitioning from female to male. Since we're complex people, intersectionality is part of this, and the first dude who is black has a lot of interesting insight with regard to transitioning from black female to black male. The last dude is of Chinese descent, and he has some stuff to say about the cultural baggage associated with gender too.

This feature/bug, in particular, I find all the time in dudes, but I didn't realize was (possibly) a testosterone thing.

A member of the family also made that transition and had similar changes. Hormones seem to matter a lot.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Let's just go back and forth with examples. That will be productive.

The simple facts are these: We are moving away from agrarian- and industrial-based economies towards technology. That means we are going to be more concentrated. The more concentrated we become, the more antiquated our voting system becomes. It makes absolutely zero sense for Montana to have the same amount of power in the Senate as NY, CA, or TX. And the more people move from states that have very few people and who produce very little, the less sense it makes. We should be about efficiency and representing people in a way that makes sense in our current and changing reality.

the senate even with the seats distributed between the states based upon population is not representative. LA and the Bay Area control x% of the house seats in Cali but 100% of the senate seats. We should give LA/SF control of 10 senate seats even though that mean 30 or 40% of the state is not represented (as they are not now but maybe represented by the Montanas of the Union?). We’ve created these meaningless state lines, and those boundaries have nothing to do with where is population.

Yes. Throw the electoral college all the fucking way out. It's stupid.

And do you think your argument about not having a President from NY or CA is convincing? That's where all the people live. As for your dumbass example of our current President being from NY, I'm going to let you sit and think about who elected him (here's a hint--it wasn't NY, IL, or CA). Be consistent with your argument.

Thurgreed 2008 would have realizedI was just fucking with him on the Trump reference:sad. Your lumbago acting up?

Let's look at the rest of your statement. If I say the system is flawed and becoming more flawed because it rewards states more power than they should have based on their population and production and punishes states where all the people live and work, then I am necessarily saying that we need to change it. Yes, I know that the proposal is different than how we've always done it. But if representation is no longer even close to fair (the President won while losing the popular vote by 3 million fucking votes!) and is getting worse, why wouldn't we change it? Again, it was set up the way it was set up in a completely different era. And it no longer makes sense.

And here's another reason why our current system doesn't work: White people in this country do not act rationally. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/o...publicans.html
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/SFTS18-19
TM

except every time the lesser vote getter became Prez it was because of lib dimwits voting third party. W won (hi ty!!!) Fla because of Nader voters for fucks sakes. You don’t throw out a system that gas functioned fairly well to try something no one does because some space fucks can’t think straight. To quote someone - fuck outta here

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

the senate even with the seats distributed between the states based upon population is not representative.

Would that depend on how that would work?

LA and the Bay Area control x% of the house seats in Cali but 100% of the senate seats.

Friend, LA has nothing to do with it. California has two Senators from San Francisco -- one the former mayor, the other the former DA. Before Harris, it was Boxer, who is from Marin County. Those of us who live south of Brisbane haven't been represented in the Senate (in the sense in which you seem to mean) in decades.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I think everyone should be on a board with a plan to stop calling soy milk, oat milk, almond milk and other such abominations "milk," and so I think it's fantastic that the Trump Administration seems to be ready to help the dairy industry get those hippies out of my fridge, or at least to stop pretending that what they are selling is "milk." Sadly, the conservative Supreme Court justices' new First Amendment jurisprudence may save the oat milkers yet.