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Old 05-03-2017, 07:59 PM   #61
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
There is no more important issue in tech today.

The emergence of the Bro-Cos like Uber is just one symptom of the problem. But at the end of the day, women are barely breaking out of single digits in the tech workforce.

That loss of talent is mind-boggling in a talent deprived industry.
If you were talking to someone in leadership at a tech startup and wanted to tell them how to do better with this problem, what would you tell them to do?
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:39 AM   #62
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I love the perspective from Earth 2.

You must have seen a different interview than I did. She said she takes responsibility for the loss, but failed to attribute it in any way to her own campaign/strategy/staff. To "I was on the way to winning until the Russians and Comey interfered and speculation regarding collusion." was the gist of it.

She won the popular vote. It seems implausible to me that the Comey letter swung blue collar whites in three states enough to cost her the election, more than say, failure to even visit such state. Even more so given the testimony today that Weiner's computer did in fact have classified information on it that came from Hillary's server.
Yup. 100X.

It's beyond a stretch to assert the Trumpkins in the rust belt and PA even paid attention to Comey. Their vote was galvanized months before.

If you drove twenty minutes outside Philly or Pittsburgh, you saw nothing but Trump signs. It was literally a sea of them, for months before the election. And even in the heart of those cities, the HRC signs were minimal. She took the minority vote for granted, and assumed - even though pundits galore were telling her otherwise - that she had the union vote.

I assumed the cities would nevertheless crush the suburban/rural vote. Man, was I wrong.

Almost every union person I know voted for Trump. Same refrain, over and over - "The guys up top are telling us to vote for Hillary, and no one's challenging them. But I'm voting for Trump."

Joe Biden could have held that union vote, and brought out more minority votes (recall, the Clintons didn't make any friends playing the racist card on Obama in the south in 2008), and I think that'd have made all the difference.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:53 AM   #63
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Re: On Noember 13th, Young Adder was asked to remove himself from his place of reside

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I recall suggesting several years ago that I should pitch a remake of "the Odd Couple" starring TM and someone else.*

Forget that nonsense (sorry TM) - I would happily tune into premium cable each week to watch the wacky hijinx of Sebby and Young Adder.

*It may have even been Sebby.
I couldn't possibly care less what a person does in regard to sexual practices, identity, or anything else related to those subjects. I'll sign whatever petition you have to use whatever facilities you prefer. I'll vote against every referendum infringing on your right to be or act however you like, and this includes voting against bigotry in the form of "religious tolerance."

But if you use the term "cis" in an accusatory manner in my presence, and suggest I'm somehow privileged because I'm not conflicted about my sexuality or identity, I'm going to laugh at you. And so will a lot of gay and trans people I know, who also find those terms, and the sort of finger wagging of people like Adder that goes along with their use, ludicrous.

This isn't being anti-trans. This is being anti-Adder. A person being silly, being frivolous - engaging as white, privileged sorts like him so often do - needs a reality check.

I'm with you. But save the lingo, and the comical notion any of us true social liberals (people like me, who would let anyone be quite literally anything he wants to be, and fight anyone who tried to inhibit them from such expression) are not appropriately "enlightened."
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:11 AM   #64
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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It goes the other way too. Some of the fastest job growth areas have been traditionally "female" and a lot of men won't take them or train for them. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/u...-by-women.html
You do not want these people working in health care. (Unless you want to stealth euthanize half of the sick.) Imagine the MRSA infection epidemic alone.

I doubt I'll be backed up on this here, but anyone who's spent any time in a mens' room knows, only 66% of us wash our hands after peeing. (There's also a not insignificant crowd who'll emerge from the stall and go straight to the door without stopping at the sink, but I can't guess on that %.)

If you've lived with a male, you know the shower will not be cleaned until the dirt is visible. And by dirt I mean, possibly mold.

Try as we might, we never clean up all the beard hair around the sink. And the toothpaste top is never properly cleaned.

Most guys here are of a more evolved sort than those in the article, but are we care givers? No. We'd make an admirable effort, but we'd still fuck it up... We'd use the wrong bandages, forget to ensure against infection around the suture, give some old person a fatal dose of ritalin instead of cardiac meds.

I regularly observe healthcare workers. I watch them multitask. And given these observations, I have always insisted on female doctors where I could do so.

I know the specialized/educated/trained male brain. And that's just not good enough for me in the care giver world. And the Times is suggesting male laborers and tradesmen should start working in health care?

If I see a guy like me working in a hospital, I'm taking my chances with herbal cures.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:31 AM   #65
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
If you were talking to someone in leadership at a tech startup and wanted to tell them how to do better with this problem, what would you tell them to do?
There is a certain amount that techs can do on hiring (have this conversation every day) and promotion, but the decisions I'm involved in are usually board and management, and getting women on tech boards and in senior management helps.

BUT, my point was not an industry one, it was an education one. Many of the biases that drive girls out of science at an early age are among their peers. We need a priority on science and tech in the schools encouraging girls at the same age a lot of boys focus on it - 11, 12. If you asked my daughter the engineer, she'd tell you the best way to do that is to focus on STEAM, integrating arts into the STEM discliplines, especially things that involve constructions, materials, fabrics, building stuff, into the tech curricula, as well as the design elements of web programming that unifies things that are more traditionally girl-focused and boy-focused, AND making sure the focus on team projects penalized those who "take over" teams, because that is a traditional boy/girl domination technique. She'd have 20 other ideas, but one I'd put near the top is listening to her and girls like her. Asking this question of them. They're the right voice to drive the issue.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:36 AM   #66
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Howard Stern did a half hour this A.M. on her. He said he kept calling her campaign. If she had gone on his show (he was a supporter) he felt she might have related more to people and it could have made a/the difference.
I can understand why she'd be hesitant, but if he was openly supporting her, that seems like a thing her people should have been able to arrange. Why say no to free supportive media?
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:39 AM   #67
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
It's beyond a stretch to assert the Trumpkins in the rust belt and PA even paid attention to Comey. Their vote was galvanized months before.
It's still about the people who stayed home.

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Joe Biden would have ... brought out more minority votes (recall, the Clintons didn't make any friends playing the racist card on Obama in the south in 2008)
Not sure about that.

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Old 05-04-2017, 10:46 AM   #68
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Re: On Noember 13th, Young Adder was asked to remove himself from his place of reside

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But if you use the term "cis" in an accusatory manner in my presence
What the fuck does that even mean? As far as I know, you're a cis man. Why is that an accusation to you?

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and suggest I'm somehow privileged because I'm not conflicted about my sexuality or identity
You are privileged because you are a cis person. Why does that bother you? How is that even remotely difficult to accept?

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And so will a lot of gay and trans people I know
There's no reason gay people can't also be transphobic. Please identify your trans friends who don't think that trans people face discrimination that cis people do not. I do not believe they exist.

And yes, I'm sure you personally do not give a fuck about anyone's gender identity, but you just gave us a whole list of things that you think are more important than trans issues because they are more important to you personally. Meanwhile, making a trans woman use the men's room can be literally life-threatening.

When's the last time you, cis man, were afraid to go pee because someone might get violent because they thought you were in the wrong bathroom?
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:51 AM   #69
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Hey, guys, remember when Hank was telling us how Obamacare was going to ruin everyone's employer-provided health care? Fun times.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:53 AM   #70
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What happens to an issue deferred?

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
STFU dim- Long ago in a galaxy far away, a cat named Darth Vader (didn't wear tailored clothes, but had a certain flair) lost a thing called the Death Star..... TWICE. First time, he could hardly be blamed, but second time the thing was under construction. Rather than realizing that his every resource needed to be put into finishing the construction, he diverted a lot of his resources into chasing every rebel rat into every rat hole. And then the yet to be finished Death Star II got blown up. I don't know if he also diverted internet conversation to gender/race issues (actually he also had species issues to deal with, so he might have really gone far afield), but anyway, a Sebby-like focus on goal 1 might have saved the Empire, is all I'm saying.
This is pissing me off. Truly. And we've discussed this idea that if Hillary had been more willing to make shit up in every jurisdiction in swing states about how she would bring back evaporated jobs than actually propose achievable job-related goals, she'd be in better shape. We also discussed how much of Trump's support is just straight up racist, xenophobic, anti-Muslim, misogynist bullshit. But if you buy this Sebby/Maher approach where we put all issues that are important to the fucking people who actually make up the Democratic Party on back burners, you think that's the solution to a big win?

And when we talk about the economy-related issues important to swing voters, that's just another way of saying, "Let's save poor and middle class whites' jobs." Because racism and the effects of institutional racism affects income for blacks and Hispanics in a much more direct and impactful way. When the economy is good, blacks' unemployment rates are way higher. When it goes bad, they're the first to lose their jobs, last to recover, and experience levels of unemployment multiples greater than whites. Blacks are told, "Pull yourself up by your fucking bootstraps" by whites who are complaining about the fucking coal jobs they are furious they lost. And I'm not even going to discuss the threat to personal safety that minorities would like to address with "identity politics" that is so low on white people's list of priorities. But the fact that white people place terrorism about 18 notches higher because they are included as targets seems significant, doesn't it?

I hate using the term, "privilege," because it's one of those terms those on the right have managed to demonize such that people's brains shut the fuck down whenever they hear it. But this is the absolute height of fucking white people privilege. So, if you're with Sebby on this, you and he can take turns sucking all the dicks.

TM

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Old 05-04-2017, 11:27 AM   #71
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Re: What happens to an issue deferred?

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
This is pissing me off. Truly. And we've discussed this idea that if Hillary had been more willing to make shit up in every jurisdiction in swing states about how she would bring back evaporated jobs than actually propose achievable job-related goals, she'd be in better shape. We also discussed how much of Trump's support is just straight up racist, xenophobic, anti-Muslim, misogynist bullshit. But if you buy this Sebby/Maher approach where we put all issues that are important to the fucking people who actually make up the Democratic Party on back burners, you think that's the solution to a big win?

And when we talk about the economy-related issues important to swing voters, that's just another way of saying, "Let's save poor and middle class whites' jobs." Because racism and the effects of institutional racism affects income for blacks and Hispanics in a much more direct and impactful way. When the economy is good, blacks' unemployment rates are way higher. When it goes bad, they're the first to lose their jobs, last to recover, and experience levels of unemployment multiples greater than whites. Blacks are told, "Pull yourself up by your fucking bootstraps" by whites who are complaining about the fucking coal jobs they are furious they lost. And I'm not even going to discuss the threat to personal safety that minorities would like to address with "identity politics" that is so low on white people's list of priorities. But the fact that white people place terrorism about 18 notches higher because they are included as targets seems significant, doesn't it?

I hate using the term, "privilege," because it's one of those terms those on the right have managed to demonize such that people's brains shut the fuck down whenever they hear it. But this is the absolute height of fucking white people privilege. So, if you're with Sebby on this, you and he can take turns sucking all the dicks.

TM
I never took an economics class. i have no idea what sebby is talking about half the time. I do know that telling society to prioritize solving the problems he mentions is absurd, and privileged. I was making a dumb joke.

Or if you want a meaning from my Star Wars equivalence, how is this: Prioritizing solutions as he suggests REQUIRES a dictatorial power like that of Darth Vader. No one in America has such an ability.

PS Hil promised jobs to Michigan.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:34 AM   #72
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Re: What happens to an issue deferred?

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I never took an economics class. i have no idea what sebby is talking about half the time. I do know that telling society to prioritize solving the problems he mentions is absurd, and privileged. I was making a dumb joke.
Sorry for the whiff.

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Old 05-04-2017, 11:50 AM   #73
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Re: What happens to an issue deferred?

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i have no idea what sebby is talking about half the time.
Neither does he.
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:02 PM   #74
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Re: On Noember 13th, Young Adder was asked to remove himself from his place of reside

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As far as I know, you're a cis man. Why is that an accusation to you?
It's part of this silly new language used by people overly fixated on identities. Reminds me of that "bro" lingo people used a few years back, or the inside lingo used by finance people.

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You are privileged because you are a cis person.
You realize that's demeaning to people who do not identify with their sex.

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Why does that bother you?
It doesn't. Your suggestion I should consider myself privileged for this biological quirk offends me intellectually. Why? Because it's frivolous. I go about my day; others go about theirs. They've no obligation to sympathize or empathize with any facet of my identity. And I've no obligation to do so regarding theirs. The only obligation we have to one another is absolute tolerance and defense of each others' rights to live in whatever manner makes us happy.

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There's no reason gay people can't also be transphobic. Please identify your trans friends who don't think that trans people face discrimination that cis people do not. I do not believe they exist.
I don't think any gay or trans person I know would disagree with those statements. Where they'd disagree is with people like you telling the "don't give a fuck; live and let live" crowd like me that I have some obligation to recognize I'm privileged.

I'm aligned with anyone fighting intolerance. But I've no duty to empathize or sympathize with anyone. Consider just how silly that concept is... If I have a duty to empathize with you and recognize that I'm privileged, then you'd have the same duty to empathize with me and understand why I'm not inclined to empathize with you. And that's just one of the comical conundrums into which this stuff devolves.

Quote:
And yes, I'm sure you personally do not give a fuck about anyone's gender identity, but you just gave us a whole list of things that you think are more important than trans issues because they are more important to you personally. Meanwhile, making a trans woman use the men's room can be literally life-threatening.
Yes, the bathroom assault concerns of 5% of society are on par in terms of significance with climate change, and our creation of a domestic police state that jails more people than than the closest other nation by a measure of two.

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When's the last time you, cis man, were afraid to go pee because someone might get violent because they thought you were in the wrong bathroom?
You're right. We need a Kyoto Treaty to set baselines on how this is to be handled.

You're making my point of yesterday, by the way. By making every gripe as loud as every other one, we, the masses, are precluding any serious change.

A million disparate grievances become noise. Solid ones (the climate's fucked, cops are shooting us... and we have film of it, gay marriage is a moral imperative, etc.) are sticky and actually create change. So yeah, it's about priorities, and about those of us who are smart enough to understand how things work emphasizing things linearly, in terms of immediate importance to the greatest number of people. Putting so many complaints into one barbaric yawp,* and demanding empathy, is just a giant Occupy Wall Street.

_____
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:02 PM   #75
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
There is a certain amount that techs can do on hiring (have this conversation every day) and promotion, but the decisions I'm involved in are usually board and management, and getting women on tech boards and in senior management helps.

BUT, my point was not an industry one, it was an education one.
OK, but I really was asking what a startup can do differently and better.
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