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Old 12-13-2017, 12:43 PM   #3421
Did you just call me Coltrane?
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post

If the GOP is smart enough to stop listening to Bannon and his ilk, yes. But then again there's that primary problem.
Bannon is Heath Ledger's Joker. “...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.”
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Old 12-13-2017, 12:57 PM   #3422
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Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.

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No, your original post was correct. Sebby is engaging in a bit of hyperbole, but the scenario he describes is not as unusual as one would like to think.

If I can step out of my schtick for a moment, I often handle employment matters for certain types of companies. I generally advise them to follow the route that you and Hank described prior to termination so that it nips any potentional claims in the bud. A nice severance package - especially one with continuation of insurance coverage pre-COBRA - usually does the trick.

I have been brought into situations after they terminate someone who is in a protected class and who suggested that the stated reason for termination was a pretext for illegal discrimination. Depending upon the situation, we’d usually try to work something out - two weeks salary and soothing words from Not Bob often worked.
I wish it were two weeks. The requests are usually 3-6 months.

I used a threat of a qui tam claim to grab a six month deal for someone a few years back. That was strange.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:01 PM   #3423
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Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.

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Absolutely not saying that. I can think of one example off the top of my head where there was discrimation on race and over-40 status. That guy went to the state and later reached a settlement with the firm’s EPL carrier. More common is the situation where there’s an open question about discrimination and whether it’s enough to get past a motion to dismiss (I’ve also handled cases for employees who were victims of discrimination, and won a six figure award for one).



Nope. I don’t think anyone is intentionally gaming the system. I think there are objective standards for harassment and discrimination - we all learned about the reasonable person test in first year torts. What I am saying is that discrimination claims - valid and frivolous- often come up for the first time when an employee is let go.

And I think the test many lawyers use in looking at the validity of these claims is not whether discrimination or some sort took place, but whether the claim will satisfy what appears to becoming a higher standard under federal law. Heck, in the case I won, the employee was (among other things) “encouraged” to attend swinging parties with her boss. And that wasnt viewed as a valid claim, but his cutting her bonus for an arguable drop in production was. Go figure.
When I became a shareholder, I was (forced to be) the Director of HR for my last firm (under 30 lawyers). Holy shit what a nightmare. Until you've done it you don't realize all of the insane shit that people complain about.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:16 PM   #3424
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Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.

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And to bring this back to the original point, you're telling me that the danger of not having clear objective standards as to what constitutes harassment (or, as it seems based on your response, discrimination) that we are in danger of people of a protected class gaming the system for that sweet, sweet two-weeks worth of salary severance cash?

TM
He may not be, but I will. Because it's not just two weeks.

These things tend to come up where people are fired for cause (doing something willfully wrong, or being seriously incompetent). The person's first concern is whether the employer will challenge an unemployment claim, as people fired for gross job failures or willful behavior can be barred from collecting unemployment benefits.

A good HR person almost always agrees not to challenge. But sometimes, they will (or management will make them do so). That's often the catalyst for the fired person to get a lawyer. Once that happens, the discussion shifts from unemployment to whatever facts the lawyer can suggest offer enough to file a claim.

The issue of whether there's really a claim, or that the termination was based on a pretext, which is almost never the case with people fired for cause, never arises. As you'd expect, the negotiation is about whether there's enough to cause embarrassment to the employer and possibly get an EEOC investigation initiated.

I initiated an EEOC claim way back when that ultimately resulted in a seven figure settlement. It was not a valid claim. There was no discrimination. But the defense would've had to prove a complex set of coincidences to defend the case. The reality was, yes, those coincidences had aligned, and had created what looked like ironclad discrimination. I didn't even spot the coincidences until after the filing.

But no one would ever believe the defense. So the employer wrote a check.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:17 PM   #3425
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I bet he runs again in 2020. He is like the Energizer Bunny of Alabama politics. Or Lazarus, if you prefer that sort of thing.
Some Alabama Republican strategist on NPR this morning says that he's always on the ballot. He never wins government seats, but he does judicial.
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Old 12-13-2017, 01:26 PM   #3426
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Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.

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Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane? View Post
When I became a shareholder, I was (forced to be) the Director of HR for my last firm (under 30 lawyers). Holy shit what a nightmare. Until you've done it you don't realize all of the insane shit that people complain about.
It is the worst job in the world. Proves the adage "hell is other people."

Our workplace laws, state and fed, are a hideous patchwork of inefficient rules. They create a system in which jailhouse lawyers abuse the shit out their "rights" at cost to decent workers. You'll never see the 80/20 rule more luridly and depressingly exhibited.

If you wonder why lawyers should never be given control of any business or organization or governmental entity with rule-making power, look no further than the HR department's costs and expansion. Rules run amuck in every direction, 70% of them mindless.
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Old 12-13-2017, 03:11 PM   #3427
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I bet he runs again in 2020. He is like the Energizer Bunny of Alabama politics. Or Lazarus, if you prefer that sort of thing.
I know more about the SNL version of Jake Tapper than the real thing, but based on the look on his face alone, I am guessing the words that ran through his mind during the interminable slack-jawed silence by the drooling moron that run's Moore's campaign are as follows:

"How has my life come to this point, where I sit on national television and attempt to have coherent and informative exchanges with demented hillbillies. When I was a child, I respected the men on the news, and saw them as important people with important jobs, informing the American public about the critical issues of the days. Damn you Ted Turner and damn you CNN for creating the 24 hour news cycle, the logical result of which is that I have to sit here and listen to this mouth-breathing, bible-thumping neanderthal lecture me on the intricacies of Constitutional politics based on the made-up Constitution that exists only in his tiny little meth-addled brain."
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Old 12-13-2017, 04:49 PM   #3428
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I think you're confused about what civil rights are. The government's protection of a right to a workplace that is free of sexual harassment is not an effort to solve a market failure that inhibits bargaining between private parties around what the optimum workplace should be like (Boss: I really value the ability to grope my subordinates. Potential subordinate: I'm not crazy about being groped, but the other job I'm looking at has a longer commute, so for the right price I guess I'm fine with that.). Civil rights are inalienable rights that you get by virtue of being a human and a citizen, and so cannot be bargained away.
Putting aside the groping, which was not part of my hypothetical, there must be some form of waiver. I repeat - how do strip clubs operate?
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Old 12-13-2017, 04:51 PM   #3429
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

The compromise tax bill is somewhat better for me. Mortgage deduction reduced to $750,000 instead of $500,000. SALT, including property taxes, deduction capped at $10,000.
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:20 PM   #3430
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Putting aside the groping, which was not part of my hypothetical, there must be some form of waiver. I repeat - how do strip clubs operate?
Aren't dancers independent contractors, not employees? I don't think independent contractors have the same rights to non-hostile work environment that employees do -- they bargain on commercial terms to provide their services because it's not a master-servant relationship. I think there was some case law on this a while back and I'm mostly talking out of my ass here because I'm not an employment lawyer, but if they are independent contractors, then they do waive rights they would otherwise have as employees.
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:28 PM   #3431
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Aren't dancers independent contractors, not employees? I don't think independent contractors have the same rights to non-hostile work environment that employees do -- they bargain on commercial terms to provide their services because it's not a master-servant relationship. I think there was some case law on this a while back and I'm mostly talking out of my ass here because I'm not an employment lawyer, but if they are independent contractors, then they do waive rights they would otherwise have as employees.
https://thinkprogress.org/strip-club...-fb3a204bcc5a/

But what about the waitresses? I'm sure they get some shit too.
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:39 PM   #3432
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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https://thinkprogress.org/strip-club...-fb3a204bcc5a/

But what about the waitresses? I'm sure they get some shit too.
The waitresses have claims, if they want to bring them. They just don't, likely because it's not worth the hassle -- do you think they would get hired in the business if they have a reputation for bringing claims? Although the tide may be turning, who knows.

Again, pretty much talking out of my ass, but fairly certain I'm mainly correct.
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Old 12-13-2017, 05:59 PM   #3433
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Originally Posted by greatwhitenorthchick View Post
The waitresses have claims, if they want to bring them. They just don't, likely because it's not worth the hassle -- do you think they would get hired in the business if they have a reputation for bringing claims? Although the tide may be turning, who knows.

Again, pretty much talking out of my ass, but fairly certain I'm mainly correct.
If it’s a bona fide occupational qualification, Less would be able to limit his staff to women who strip and dance. That’s why Hooters can hire cute girls and make them wear Dolfin shorts - they were able to establish that was a BFOQ when a dude sued them for not hiring him as a waiter.

That doesn’t mean the Hooters’ manager can pat a waitress on her ass, or allow a customer to do that. Same for strippers (the independent contoractor versus employee battle has been going on for years). You can make stripping a requirement, but you still can’t sexually harass your employees.
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Old 12-13-2017, 06:22 PM   #3434
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower View Post
I know more about the SNL version of Jake Tapper than the real thing, but based on the look on his face alone, I am guessing the words that ran through his mind during the interminable slack-jawed silence by the drooling moron that run's Moore's campaign are as follows:

"How has my life come to this point, where I sit on national television and attempt to have coherent and informative exchanges with demented hillbillies. When I was a child, I respected the men on the news, and saw them as important people with important jobs, informing the American public about the critical issues of the days. Damn you Ted Turner and damn you CNN for creating the 24 hour news cycle, the logical result of which is that I have to sit here and listen to this mouth-breathing, bible-thumping neanderthal lecture me on the intricacies of Constitutional politics based on the made-up Constitution that exists only in his tiny little meth-addled brain."
Jake Tapper has blocked me on Twitter, and I have no idea why.
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Old 12-13-2017, 06:24 PM   #3435
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Putting aside the groping, which was not part of my hypothetical, there must be some form of waiver. I repeat - how do strip clubs operate?
Lots of companies get away with violating lots of laws by doing it to people who they don't think will complain or seek redress. You can a hypothesize a strip club with fantastic legal compliance, but I'm not sure you can visit one.
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