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Old 08-16-2017, 10:46 AM   #1621
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I know they will be there. You can stay safe. My point was a black man and his family in the rough, not so sure. He is a man who doesn't try to filter, and he goes from his brain to a post directly. Very sad to see this man's reality.
OK, I'd misunderstood. Yes, good point. I also worry about my angry Jewish nephew, who is likely to be showing up on Saturday and really isn't ready to take shit from these assholes.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:51 AM   #1622
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
White Nationalists and racists didn't need black, brown and queer people and women standing up for equality to "mak[e] up identity politics. They've been at it forever.

This is a disgusting Fox News talking point you should be smart enough not to repeat.
Hundreds of people just marched identifying themselves as White Nationalists. How are they not engaged in identity politics? That they've been at it for years is immaterial.

These people have divided themselves from everyone else and raised a unique (appalling, but still discrete) grievance.

You can argue that their grievance is not valid. But they have self-identified and asserted a position. What alternative name would you apply to this political device they are employing?
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:57 AM   #1623
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Hundreds of people just marched identifying themselves as White Nationalists. How are they not engaged in identity politics? That they've been at it for years is immaterial.

These people have divided themselves from everyone else and raised a unique (appalling, but still discrete) grievance.

You can argue that their grievance is not valid. But they have self-identified and asserted a position. What alternative name would you apply to this political device they are employing?
Why do we need a label other than White Nationalism, racism and Nazism?

The reason the right is calling it "identity politics" is to try to undermine the various movements for rights of actual oppressed communities.

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Old 08-16-2017, 10:59 AM   #1624
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I see more of a willful ignorance strategy emerging.

I hear from lots of Rs. Most find Trump to be a huge jackass, and are pissed that he can't get anything done. But they're not in any hurry to wade into the social debate. Some don't care. But most have this view: The Media and Trump deserve each other.
In other words, they don't like Trump, but they are conservatives first and foremost, and in the ongoing struggle they'll take the allies they have.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:15 AM   #1625
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Lots of people don't care. Because, ultimately, they are racists too.

I think a lot of people (including me) used to think that for the most part pretty much everyone agreed that racism was bad. Sure, there was lots of latent racism in pretty much everyone, and tons of lingering institutional racism, but aside from a small number of nutjobs, we were mostly on the same page. People were mostly racist out of ignorance (what do you mean I shouldn't say that?) not out of hatred. We thought this because that's the way that polite society behaved. People are dumb, not evil. Politics and corporate America work this way.

Then Trump came along and rejected all of that. Some of us urged people to reject him because of it and collectively as a country we didn't care. Maybe they didn't vote for him because of it, but they surely didn't vote against him either.

So that's gone. We can no longer believe that people are mostly just ignorant. They know he's a racist and they don't care. That makes them racist too.
The Left fucked up when it started calling everyone a sexist/racist/xenophobe with abandon. I understand why it did so. But as strategy, this was counterproductive.

I could see this train wreck coming years ago. It started after Zimmerman's murder of Martin. At that moment, I could say to most white GOP folks I know, "The court system is racist" without fear of inciting a fistfight. I could say to even old white conservative men, "Look. I did crim law in a city. Black people get fucked by the court system. And the cops are brutal to them. BLM has a serious fucking point." They'd probably call me a pinko, intellectual, or some other shit behind my back, but they'd respect the view. Because I didn't throw "racist" around loosely. I applied the descriptive where it fit, sparingly, and I backed it up with facts, and some experience.

But then along came the election of 2016. Suddenly, charges of racism and sexism were everywhere. Many were valid, but many were not. Social liberals like me didn't care because we were used to our well meaning liberal friends overreaching in their indictments. But a lot of conservatives got seriously pissed off about the over-labeling of too many people as racists and sexists for the smallest of perceived offenses. And the Libertarian (Bill Maher) wing got sick of hearing liberals enforce speech codes on people.

At this point, seeing all sides rather dispassionately, I recall thinking, "The Left's going to go too far and fuck it up... They're grieving every slight, however minor. A really useful movement like BLM is going to be forgotten as a result." And that's pretty much what happened.

What I very much did not see was a resurgence of truly racist psychopaths having the nerve to self-identify and march. And I certainly did not envision this group including the sort of polo and khaki wearing sorts I saw in video of Charlottesville. The scariest thing about that march isn't the nut on Vice with an AK-47. It's the parade of cubicle moles who look like they walked out of a J Crew catalog marching along singing "blood and soil!"

I'm a closet elitist. I believe knuckle draggers should be insulted and compelled to enlightenment. But I'm also a realist. I understand that when you throw around serious charges like racist and sexist too loosely, at too many people, and you assume a moral pedestal and judge all those who don't follow your liberal view of the world to the letter, you're going to get brushback.

You've lost many of the GOP moderates who'd normally support your valid indignation at things like Charlottesville. Nobody rallies to the aid of a Robespierre brandishing moral opprobrium and calling everything that even slightly offends his views a bigot or a fascist.

This only heals by people tapering the invective. It starts with the chief antagonist, Trump, being removed, and the rest of us returning to civil discourse, and refraining from fighting on every fucking mole hill on which a liberal and conservative wish to battle.

If I've not made it clear, let me repeat: He needs to go. We can't have what we had in Charlottesville anymore. His comment afterward invited repeat similar events.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:23 AM   #1626
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
In other words, they don't like Trump, but they are conservatives first and foremost, and in the ongoing struggle they'll take the allies they have.
They're tired of being told they're evil by the media. (Don't argue with me on that point. It's not mine. I've said, "But what about Fox?" They don't care. They see a media landscape mostly controlled by liberals who hate them. And there's no undoing that perception.)

They also really want that promised tax cut.

ETA: What did people think was going to happen? The evangelicals, bible belters, and angry rust belters were just going to shrink into caves while we social liberals, libertarians, and exclusively tax-voting Republicans moved society to our liking? The Nixon Nation didn't die with Tricky Dick. Half of this country is still quite hierarchical and traditional. And a lot of them don't have jobs or meaning in their lives anymore. Seriously... You didn't think as these people lost their jobs and social moorings, they wouldn't radicalize in some fucked up fashion? We've seen how lack of meaning works on impressionable young unemployed men in the Middle East. Did we think our "lost causes" were going to be different?
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:40 AM   #1627
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The Left fucked up when it started calling everyone a sexist/racist/xenophobe with abandon.
Seriously go fuck yourself. We're sitting here today with a racist in the White House and you think that's because we called out racism, sexism and xenophobia too much? Motherfucker this country is racist, sexist and xenophobic.

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But as strategy, this was counterproductive.
It's not a strategy. It's factual.

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I could see this train wreck coming years ago.
Aren't you fucking prescient, Captain "I voted Gary Johnson."

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Suddenly, charges of racism and sexism were everywhere. Many were valid, but many were not.
Again, go fuck yourself, great white male arbiter of what is and isn't bigoted. God forbid you listen to women, people of color, queer people and immigrants on these topics rather than decide from your office chair.

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At this point, seeing all sides rather dispassionately, I recall thinking, "The Left's going to go too far and fuck it up... They're grieving every slight, however minor. A really useful movement like BLM is going to be forgotten as a result." And that's pretty much what happened.
Bullshit. What happened is America is racists, sexist and xenophobic at its core and more than half of it didn't give a shit about BLM in the first place.

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You've lost many of the GOP moderates who'd normally support your valid indignation at things like Charlottesville.
Then they aren't moderates. They're racists.

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This only heals by people tapering the invective.
It only heals by people shutting up about injustice, you mean. Tell us again how privilege isn't a thing?
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:57 AM   #1628
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Seriously go fuck yourself. We're sitting here today with a racist in the White House and you think that's because we called out racism, sexism and xenophobia too much? Motherfucker this country is racist, sexist and xenophobic.



It's not a strategy. It's factual.



Aren't you fucking prescient, Captain "I voted Gary Johnson."



Again, go fuck yourself, great white male arbiter of what is and isn't bigoted. God forbid you listen to women, people of color, queer people and immigrants on these topics rather than decide from your office chair.



Bullshit. What happened is America is racists, sexist and xenophobic at its core and more than half of it didn't give a shit about BLM in the first place.



Then they aren't moderates. They're racists.



It only heals by people shutting up about injustice, you mean. Tell us again how privilege isn't a thing?
Your immature rant could not have better capped my point.

People like you, and your counterparts on the right, cause people like me to check out.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:45 PM   #1629
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Re: Maybe Bannon's not the only one with that skill

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Your immature rant could not have better capped my point.

People like you, and your counterparts on the right, cause people like me to check out.
Here's the thing, Adder may tell you to fuck yourself, but the Republicans are the ones that are actually going to fuck you.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:55 PM   #1630
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The Left fucked up when it started calling everyone a sexist/racist/xenophobe with abandon.
I think you're saying that it was true but counterproductive. If so, it is unrealistic to think that a huge, unorganized political movement (putting it that way makes the Left sound more cohesive than it is) would have been able to avoid telling the truth once in a while. To the extent that you see yourself as uttering a politically unpalatable but necessary truth here, not sure why you think people on the Left wouldn't be attracted to doing the same.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:58 PM   #1631
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
They're tired of being told they're evil by the media. (Don't argue with me on that point. It's not mine. I've said, "But what about Fox?" They don't care. They see a media landscape mostly controlled by liberals who hate them. And there's no undoing that perception.)

They also really want that promised tax cut.
I'm not arguing with you. Conservatives care more about their grievances as conservatives -- the media, living in a society controlled by the left -- than they do about a little racism or the increased threat of a nuclear war. Trump's on their side, in the end, in the struggle they care about.

Quote:
ETA: What did people think was going to happen? The evangelicals, bible belters, and angry rust belters were just going to shrink into caves while we social liberals, libertarians, and exclusively tax-voting Republicans moved society to our liking? The Nixon Nation didn't die with Tricky Dick. Half of this country is still quite hierarchical and traditional. And a lot of them don't have jobs or meaning in their lives anymore. Seriously... You didn't think as these people lost their jobs and social moorings, they wouldn't radicalize in some fucked up fashion? We've seen how lack of meaning works on impressionable young unemployed men in the Middle East. Did we think our "lost causes" were going to be different?
Off my corner, ho.
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Old 08-16-2017, 02:13 PM   #1632
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Your immature rant could not have better capped my point.

People like you, and your counterparts on the right, cause people like me to check out.
It's really hard to be held accountable for saying stupid shit, isn't it?
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:08 PM   #1633
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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It's really hard to be held accountable for saying stupid shit, isn't it?
The more vehemently and childishly you oppose a point, the more credible it usually is.

You took a complex point, repackaged and simplified it, and then offered an infantile reply. You're well intentioned, but you waste bandwidth.
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:18 PM   #1634
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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It's really hard to be held accountable for saying stupid shit, isn't it?
Physician, heal thyself.
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:26 PM   #1635
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I think you're saying that it was true but counterproductive. If so, it is unrealistic to think that a huge, unorganized political movement (putting it that way makes the Left sound more cohesive than it is) would have been able to avoid telling the truth once in a while. To the extent that you see yourself as uttering a politically unpalatable but necessary truth here, not sure why you think people on the Left wouldn't be attracted to doing the same.
There are fools on the Left who overaccuse (the sorts who called Maher a racist, the campus crybabies who ban speakers, the Huffpo demographic, etc.). They dilute the claims of the serious people behind things like BLM. The opportunists on the Right lump them all together and use the weak grievances to suggest all grievances are frivolous or overwrought.

A variant of the same shit exists on the Right. The crazies screaming things like "Socialist" or "secret Islamist" ruin everything for the moderates.

We need to rid both sides of the frivolous and crazy people and focus on the serious people.

It's a pipe dream, I know.

But the extremists will learn, soon enough, that when you go around firing off harsh indictments in every situation, and where they don't really fit, it's like pointing a gun at a bear. If you miss, or merely wound and anger, you've got a serious fucking problem.

When everything is [insert offense here]ism, nothing is. Everyone is desensitized, and things previously in the sphere of deviancy, like Charlottesville, are mainstreamed.
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