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Old 08-14-2019, 06:37 PM   #2836
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Bullshit. Your understanding of her book is warped. What she described is a phenomenon, a situation, a societal condition, that should never be used as a go to argument every time you don't have much of an argument on the substance. That's what you're doing here.

There isn't anything anyone says here that you will not immediately flag as accruing from bigotry in some regard. You attempt to grandstand in every conversation with this tactic. You're full of shit. A little kid looking to score points. Look at my virtue!

I said China makes a number of quality items. But it also makes a whole lotta junk. This isn't up for debate. And it has nothing to do with race. It has to do with economic and political factors within the country.

Am I bigoted? Yes. Against almost every form of Chinese appliance or home furnishing I've bought (save the antiques), I am. It's not well made.

Guess what else isn't well made: Mercedes. They used to be built like bank vaults. Now they're cheap plasticky shitboxes. Chalk me up as bigoted against the Germans for pumping out cheap shadows of their past vehicles.

A shit product is a shit product is a shit product, and I'm tired of buying so many shit products. I'd buy American in re appliances, but I can't even do that. Few are made here and those that are have fallen in quality because, well, Why make something well when you can half ass it, have it break sooner, and compel the customer to buy another? That's what the competition abroad does.

Shall we get into British cars next? Might my refusal to ever own one be evidence of xenophobia toward the Brits?

White Fragility made sense. You've no business citing that book. That you do is kind of an insult to it. A cogent and measured argument like hers shouldn't be shoehorned into your moralizing pronouncements.

ETA: You're exactly what'll get Trump re-elected.
This is self-parody, right?
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Old 08-14-2019, 07:00 PM   #2837
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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This is self-parody, right?
You should learn how to manage these types of discussions. When Sebby posts something that shows his eyes have been opened to shit I've been hammering away at for years, why are pushing him on something that is most likely not meant to be racist. You know what he means.

I understand that you are an ally, but let me tell you, from a lifetime of experience when it comes to broaching this subject with white people, you need to pick your battles. If you point out everything, all the time, you will get tuned right the fuck out.

TM
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:22 PM   #2838
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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You should learn how to manage these types of discussions. When Sebby posts something that shows his eyes have been opened to shit I've been hammering away at for years, why are pushing him on something that is most likely not meant to be racist. You know what he means.

I understand that you are an ally, but let me tell you, from a lifetime of experience when it comes to broaching this subject with white people, you need to pick your battles. If you point out everything, all the time, you will get tuned right the fuck out.

TM
I realized reading Diangelo’s direct, lucid, and dryly logical argument that I didn’t really have an issue with her positions. How could I? Logic is logic. Her analyses were laid out like mathematical proofs. Even if I suspected her of bias, which I didn’t, her points would nevertheless be largely irrefutable.

I realized I was arguing most with people like Adder. He’s not really an ally. He’s biased, extremely, toward appearing exceptionally virtuous in matters regarding race, sex, LGBTQ, etc. But unlike Diangelo, who carefully and rigorously explains her definition of racism in the United States, Adder offers no thinking. He just reflexively labels anything he can some form of bigotry or prejudice.

He’s the embodiment of the hammer seeing only nails analogy.

This is not thoughtful, nor is it rigorous. To immediately cite bigotry as the cause of all criticisms one hears about foreign products is lazy, and its grandstanding. And he should not be considered a credible ally because it is largely that affirmation that he seeks. He wants to be the dutiful finder of bigotry everywhere, and so his move, anytime he sees even the thinnest pretext to do so is to, in a Javert fashion, accuse the speaker of bigotry.

He means well, but in this regard he’s the chatboard equivalent of an “unreliable narrator.” And to the extent the behavior of him and the many like him offends an independent like me, well, imagine its impact on Biden voters, and Trump voters with some buyer’s remorse. “Allies” like Adder, behaving as they do en masse, are what can and indeed may likely lose the Ds the middle, and consequently lose them the election.

And it won’t be because the middle is fragile. Indeed, the whites in the middle are fragile. But they can also spot grandstanding. And that really turns off people.

I honestly don’t think Adder realizes how transparent he is. But he has no business claiming Diangelo as support. She wrote an argument. He’s entirely Pavlovian. Dangle an opening for his favorite accusation (pick whatever form of bigotry he can shoehorn into the facts at issue) and he never fails to provide it.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:23 PM   #2839
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I realized reading Diangelo’s direct, lucid, and dryly logical argument that I didn’t really have an issue with her positions. How could I? Logic is logic. Her analyses were laid out like mathematical proofs. Even if I suspected her of bias, which I didn’t, her points would nevertheless be largely irrefutable.

I realized I was arguing most with people like Adder. He’s not really an ally. He’s biased, extremely, toward appearing exceptionally virtuous in matters regarding race, sex, LGBTQ, etc. But unlike Diangelo, who carefully and rigorously explains her definition of racism in the United States, Adder offers no thinking. He just reflexively labels anything he can some form of bigotry or prejudice.

He’s the embodiment of the hammer seeing only nails analogy.

This is not thoughtful, nor is it rigorous. To immediately cite bigotry as the cause of all criticisms one hears about foreign products is lazy, and its grandstanding. And he should not be considered a credible ally because it is largely that affirmation that he seeks. He wants to be the dutiful finder of bigotry everywhere, and so his move, anytime he sees even the thinnest pretext to do so is to, in a Javert fashion, accuse the speaker of bigotry.

He means well, but in this regard he’s the chatboard equivalent of an “unreliable narrator.” And to the extent the behavior of him and the many like him offends an independent like me, well, imagine its impact on Biden voters, and Trump voters with some buyer’s remorse. “Allies” like Adder, behaving as they do en masse, are what can and indeed may likely lose the Ds the middle, and consequently lose them the election.

And it won’t be because the middle is fragile. Indeed, the whites in the middle are fragile. But they can also spot grandstanding. And that really turns off people.

I honestly don’t think Adder realizes how transparent he is. But he has no business claiming Diangelo as support. She wrote an argument. He’s entirely Pavlovian. Dangle an opening for his favorite accusation (pick whatever form of bigotry he can shoehorn into the facts at issue) and he never fails to provide it.
Dude, take a breath. Adder is too quick to blame him/us (he is where I coined the post summary “white people bad, black people good”) but he ain’t stupid and the point in this bit is, you quoting several people saying anything made in China is shit. Then you admit that only some is. But that means you gotta look at the thing in question? I’ve a client whose name everyone here respects, they make stuff in China. It’s good I believe- their name is too important not to watch that. So to quote someone saying “China shit is bad” isn’t too far from Adder’s “white people bad.*” An overly simplified view that boils a more nuanced q to race?


*Adder, first version equates it to “all blacks bad” but I thought this works better to my audience? No offense.
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Old 08-14-2019, 09:34 PM   #2840
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You should learn how to manage these types of discussions. When Sebby posts something that shows his eyes have been opened to shit I've been hammering away at for years, why are pushing him on something that is most likely not meant to be racist. You know what he means.

I understand that you are an ally, but let me tell you, from a lifetime of experience when it comes to broaching this subject with white people, you need to pick your battles. If you point out everything, all the time, you will get tuned right the fuck out.

TM
Ehh, at the risk of “whitesplainin” the main lesson of that book is don’t think you are in a position to “whitesplain,” to me at least, everything up to her getting called out was prologue- meaning it is all in the execution and day to day living.

book reviews are easy, let’s see how peeps move forward having read the book?
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Old 08-14-2019, 11:12 PM   #2841
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Dude, take a breath. Adder is too quick to blame him/us (he is where I coined the post summary “white people bad, black people good”) but he ain’t stupid and the point in this bit is, you quoting several people saying anything made in China is shit. Then you admit that only some is. But that means you gotta look at the thing in question? I’ve a client whose name everyone here respects, they make stuff in China. It’s good I believe- their name is too important not to watch that. So to quote someone saying “China shit is bad” isn’t too far from Adder’s “white people bad.*” An overly simplified view that boils a more nuanced q to race?


*Adder, first version equates it to “all blacks bad” but I thought this works better to my audience? No offense.
I see your point. But you’re doing something Adder doesn’t. You’re asking whether a bent against Chinese people informs a view of their products. He’s already passed judgement and decided it is entirely the reason for my dislike of the products noted. You’re seeking insight. He’s seeking applause, reinforcement of his judgment.

There is no insincerity or insecurity to be found in your criticism. That’s why I’ll address it without sarcasm.

I think it’s fair to say a lot of what China makes is substandard because it’s simply factually accurate. That’s not controversial. My clients and friends who do business there wouldn’t quibble much with that. It was Where You Got Stuff Built Cheap. Now it’s not so cheap. Economically, this means that products cheaply made a few years ago are even more cheaply made now.

They make parts for GM cars, and some GM cars entirely. Okay. You buying a Buick crossover anytime soon?

I buy only Japanese. It’s boring, but it works forever. My wife buys German. Over-engineered junk. I’m not driving an Audi with a turbo engine, or any car with a belt I’ll replace for $3k at 100k miles. Benz E classes are now 4 cylinder turbos. And I’ll never own another BMW, despite loving how they perform. Cars fall apart at 150k miles.

Toyota and their Lexus division? Cars run for 250k easily. No problems.

(At this point, Adder would perhaps cite Nanking as further proof I am deeply anti-China.)

Anyway, I’m not anti-China. My house is decorated in Chinese and Japanese stuff. And I’ve honestly not really thought about China much other than to suspect their foreign policy based on shit I heard from a state department fellow who knew some generals over there and said they’re Not Our Friends.

But no one should be our friends. They’re our rival. That’s okay.

But if you sell me a piece of crap HVAC unit, dishwasher, washer/dryer, and auto parts, it’s reasonable for me to say, you guys are making shit.

That you make great stuff in one area doesn’t undo making some real crappy shit elsewhere. If to note that that makes me a racist toward the Chinese, then so too is Consumer Reports.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:49 AM   #2842
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I realized reading Diangelo’s direct, lucid, and dryly logical argument that I didn’t really have an issue with her positions. How could I? Logic is logic. Her analyses were laid out like mathematical proofs. Even if I suspected her of bias, which I didn’t, her points would nevertheless be largely irrefutable.

I realized I was arguing most with people like Adder. He’s not really an ally. He’ biased, extremely, toward appearing exceptionally virtuous in matters regarding race, sex, LGBTQ, etc. But unlike Diangelo, who carefully and rigorously explains her definition of racism in the United States, Adder offers no thinking. He just reflexively labels anything he can some form of bigotry or prejudice.

He’s the embodiment of the hammer seeing only nails analogy.

This is not thoughtful, nor is it rigorous. To immediately cite bigotry as the cause of all criticisms one hears about foreign products is lazy, and its grandstanding. And he should not be considered a credible ally because it is largely that affirmation that he seeks. He wants to be the dutiful finder of bigotry everywhere, and so his move, anytime he sees even the thinnest pretext to do so is to, in a Javert fashion, accuse the speaker of bigotry.

He means well, but in this regard he’s the chatboard equivalent of an “unreliable narrator.” And to the extent the behavior of him and the many like him offends an independent like me, well, imagine its impact on Biden voters, and Trump voters with some buyer’s remorse. “Allies” like Adder, behaving as they do en masse, are what can and indeed may likely lose the Ds the middle, and consequently lose them the election.

And it won’t be because the middle is fragile. Indeed, the whites in the middle are fragile. But they can also spot grandstanding. And that really turns off people.

I honestly don’t think Adder realizes how transparent he is. But he has no business claiming Diangelo as support. She wrote an argument. He’s entirely Pavlovian. Dangle an opening for his favorite accusation (pick whatever form of bigotry he can shoehorn into the facts at issue) and he never fails to provide it.
Adder is, was, and remains a naif.
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:24 AM   #2843
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Norwegians make lousy pizza. So do the Swiss.
I really seem to have hit a chord with my complaint about Norwegian Pizza.

Let me stir this pot, then. There is great foreign food in many foreign countries. I've had really good Indian and Thai food in Iceland, some great Russian and Middle Eastern food in Paris, and really good Pizza in Denmark.
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Old 08-15-2019, 09:43 AM   #2844
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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I really seem to have hit a chord with my complaint about Norwegian Pizza.

Let me stir this pot, then. There is great foreign food in many foreign countries. I've had really good Indian and Thai food in Iceland, some great Russian and Middle Eastern food in Paris, and really good Pizza in Denmark.
You don't think there is good Italian food in Sicily, so why should we trust this at all?
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:52 AM   #2845
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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You don't think there is good Italian food in Sicily, so why should we trust this at all?
There was some really good fish in Sicily.
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:05 PM   #2846
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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He’s already passed judgement
How can you not get it through your head that it isn't "passing judgment?" It's not an "insult." It's not pointing out a personal flaw.

One of DiAngelo's very first points is that racism is everywhere and we're all living in and shaped by a culture that is steeped in white supremacy. We have no choice but to be influenced by it. Our choice is what we do about it.
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:34 PM   #2847
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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I really seem to have hit a chord with my complaint about Norwegian Pizza.

Let me stir this pot, then. There is great foreign food in many foreign countries. I've had really good Indian and Thai food in Iceland, some great Russian and Middle Eastern food in Paris, and really good Pizza in Denmark.
I want to see Iceland. A sibling did ten days there a few years ago and raved about it. (Penis museum, unfortunately, took up an outsized number of photos sent to me... and all I got as a gift was vodka and brined shark jerky.) A friend went to a bachelor party there recently. I guess it's a destination for such things. The landscapes look amazing, and I like the idea of pulling over on the roadside and hopping in a hot spring.

My last pizza abroad effort was in Dublin. This is not recommended. Even worse is eating anything in or around Sligo or Ballina.

The acid reflux keeps me on mainly protein. The steak tartar with cognac and lox are good in Amsterdam and Norway. This is probably because they are good almost everywhere.

DC is the best eclectic food town, IMO. You can get everything. I've no frame of comparison, but have been told the Ethiopian food there is world class. Makes sense given the huge Ethiopian population there.

Foreign food = Possibly the best argument in favor of more immigration. You'll never see the "Puritan Diet" as a trend. It'd render one suicidal.
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:47 PM   #2848
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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How can you not get it through your head that it isn't "passing judgment?" It's not an "insult." It's not pointing out a personal flaw.

One of DiAngelo's very first points is that racism is everywhere and we're all living in and shaped by a culture that is steeped in white supremacy. We have no choice but to be influenced by it. Our choice is what we do about it.
You might've done better to pass judgment on my spelling it with an "e." There you'd have drawn blood.

Your second point was something I almost pre-empted in my post, because I knew (I knew it) that's where you were headed. That race is an omnipresent fact does not mean all statements have racist components. And also, Diangelo took assiduous pains to focus on racism toward blacks. I won't say her arguments are directed exclusively to racism against blacks in America, because I don't think that's true. But what I am certain is true is that White Fragility cannot be applied to white/Chinese relations in the exact same way it applies to white/black relations. Blacks in America sit in a unique position. The Chinese were treated horribly during railroad building booms, but it's not the same thing. The racism applied to black people here is not the same as xenophobia applied to the Chinese.

Also, when Diangelo says that racism touches all things, she does not say it controls all things. She's saying it's in there to an extent, always a component. But how big? Could be huge. Could be small. It depends on the situation. You're arguing that the entirety of the criticisms of some Chinese goods accrue from racism. In your bizarre reasoning, no one can criticize Chinese goods (or goods from any country, really) on a basis other than, or that does not include in overwhelming amount, racist bias. That's not a sustainable argument. You're taking Diangelo's constructs and running them to absurd ends.

I don't think highly of Chinese appliances. This is not me being racist. This is me criticizing the country that makes most of the appliances I am compelled to buy. I honestly don't know how not to criticize the Chinese when critiquing appliances. They make almost everything!
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:52 PM   #2849
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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I want to see Iceland. A sibling did ten days there a few years ago and raved about it. (Penis museum, unfortunately, took up an outsized number of photos sent to me... and all I got as a gift was vodka and brined shark jerky.) A friend went to a bachelor party there recently. I guess it's a destination for such things. The landscapes look amazing, and I like the idea of pulling over on the roadside and hopping in a hot spring.

My last pizza abroad effort was in Dublin. This is not recommended. Even worse is eating anything in or around Sligo or Ballina.

The acid reflux keeps me on mainly protein. The steak tartar with cognac and lox are good in Amsterdam and Norway. This is probably because they are good almost everywhere.

DC is the best eclectic food town, IMO. You can get everything. I've no frame of comparison, but have been told the Ethiopian food there is world class. Makes sense given the huge Ethiopian population there.

Foreign food = Possibly the best argument in favor of more immigration. You'll never see the "Puritan Diet" as a trend. It'd render one suicidal.
Got to see Iceland. I started using it as a stopping point to Europe a few years back, when travel was hard for me. A few hours to Iceland, a day or two there relaxing, a few hours to London or wherever. Reykjavik is a wonderful small city, it is book and cafe crazy, and has a busy port, and the countryside is just mind-bogglingly beautiful.

My favorite food cities are Montreal, San Francisco, Athens, and Shanghai, but, then, those are just among my favorite cities for lots of things.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:07 PM   #2850
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Got to see Iceland. I started using it as a stopping point to Europe a few years back, when travel was hard for me. A few hours to Iceland, a day or two there relaxing, a few hours to London or wherever. Reykjavik is a wonderful small city, it is book and cafe crazy, and has a busy port, and the countryside is just mind-bogglingly beautiful.

My favorite food cities are Montreal, San Francisco, Athens, and Shanghai, but, then, those are just among my favorite cities for lots of things.
This is strange to say, but Kauai and Maui remain my favorite food cities. (I've not been to SF in ages, and I know I'm missing out.) On the desert side of Kauai where no one travels there seems to be nothing but poke huts. The best raw seafood I've had was in dirty hut on the roadside in Kauai, where I wondered if I wasn't trifling with some form of food poisoning, but it was amazing. Still the best I've had -- better than toro at Bond Street, which is a solid second best. (Don't recall Morimoto... only the upstairs in Philly, after many drinks.)

My in laws and my best friend recommend St. Petersburg. Hermitage is supposed to be amazing.

I think I'm in Athens next year. (I don't book the trips, I just follow as led.) I imagine the Greek diet will suit me well, given I eat seafood about five days a week as it is.
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