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Old 03-21-2012, 05:35 PM   #916
Hank Chinaski
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch View Post
If I were making the rules from scratch, I would allow neither condition. A league is a club, and the only form of discipline I would allow of players, coaches or teams is "You can't play, ever" or "You can't play for __ games." Conditioning the ability to play on the status of contractual obligations with a team's employees is a bad idea. What if the Saints said "Your conditions would put us in breach of contract under Louisiana law?" or "This effectively exposes us to constructive dismissal liability?" Is the league then supposed to say "You should have thought of that when negotiating terms"? Just messy. The league's power is to say "You're not a member in good standing if . . .". Prohibiting financial dealings is asking for trouble.

But I've come to recognize I often see things in ways others think crazy, so have at it.
Can a league say "Team X has drafted John Doe, so Team y cannot contract with John Doe."
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:56 PM   #917
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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They haven't announced player discipline yet, I don't think.
The amounts were small and mostly funded by small fines for things like sleeping through meetings. So real discipline will be suspensions or large fines.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:57 PM   #918
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch View Post
If I were making the rules from scratch, I would allow neither condition. A league is a club, and the only form of discipline I would allow of players, coaches or teams is "You can't play, ever" or "You can't play for __ games." Conditioning the ability to play on the status of contractual obligations with a team's employees is a bad idea. What if the Saints said "Your conditions would put us in breach of contract under Louisiana law?" or "This effectively exposes us to constructive dismissal liability?" Is the league then supposed to say "You should have thought of that when negotiating terms"? Just messy. The league's power is to say "You're not a member in good standing if . . .". Prohibiting financial dealings is asking for trouble.

But I've come to recognize I often see things in ways others think crazy, so have at it.
Or the league could fine him $7.5 million and either give the money to charity or back to the Saints.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:01 PM   #919
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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The amounts were small and mostly funded by small fines for things like sleeping through meetings. So real discipline will be suspensions or large fines.
I suspect Mr. Vilma will not like what Commissioner Goodell instructs (against Atticus's delicate sensibilities) the Saints to do about his play and pay this year. It can't be comfortable to be specifically called out for offering $10,000 on the head of the geriatric Mr. Favre. Especially because his teammates collected $30,000 in fine for their attempts to collect.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:07 PM   #920
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch View Post
If I were making the rules from scratch, I would allow neither condition. A league is a club, and the only form of discipline I would allow of players, coaches or teams is "You can't play, ever" or "You can't play for __ games." Conditioning the ability to play on the status of contractual obligations with a team's employees is a bad idea. What if the Saints said "Your conditions would put us in breach of contract under Louisiana law?" or "This effectively exposes us to constructive dismissal liability?" Is the league then supposed to say "You should have thought of that when negotiating terms"? Just messy. The league's power is to say "You're not a member in good standing if . . .". Prohibiting financial dealings is asking for trouble.

But I've come to recognize I often see things in ways others think crazy, so have at it.
Courts recognize that sports leagues get to force their clubs to do certain things. It may be asking for trouble, but the leagues often prevail in said troubles. There are actually legal cases and such about this.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:21 PM   #921
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Courts recognize that sports leagues get to force their clubs to do certain things. It may be asking for trouble, but the leagues often prevail in said troubles. There are actually legal cases and such about this.
And there is also the reality where an individual team is generally unlikely to complain lest they get kicked out of the league.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:21 PM   #922
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Courts recognize that sports leagues get to force their clubs to do certain things. It may be asking for trouble, but the leagues often prevail in said troubles. There are actually legal cases and such about this.
It's funny. The government almost always wins in court, but every time about half the people think they shouldn't.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:23 PM   #923
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
Can a league say "Team X has drafted John Doe, so Team y cannot contract with John Doe."
I'm usually the guy defending collective decisionmaking at the expense of autonomy, but isn't that rule kinda sucky for John Doe? And for the enrichment of whom? Other players? It is to laugh.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:53 PM   #924
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch View Post
If I were making the rules from scratch, I would allow neither condition. A league is a club, and the only form of discipline I would allow of players, coaches or teams is "You can't play, ever" or "You can't play for __ games." Conditioning the ability to play on the status of contractual obligations with a team's employees is a bad idea. What if the Saints said "Your conditions would put us in breach of contract under Louisiana law?" or "This effectively exposes us to constructive dismissal liability?" Is the league then supposed to say "You should have thought of that when negotiating terms"? Just messy. The league's power is to say "You're not a member in good standing if . . .". Prohibiting financial dealings is asking for trouble.

But I've come to recognize I often see things in ways others think crazy, so have at it.
It's no fun when you add the last line.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:55 PM   #925
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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It's funny. The government almost always wins in court, but every time about half the people think they shouldn't.
You could change "the government" to "one of the parties", and this will still be true.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:56 PM   #926
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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And there is also the reality where an individual team is generally unlikely to complain lest they get kicked out of the league.
??? cite please?
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:40 PM   #927
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Atticus Grinch View Post
I'm usually the guy defending collective decisionmaking at the expense of autonomy, but isn't that rule kinda sucky for John Doe? And for the enrichment of whom? Other players? It is to laugh.
Having a sports league involves setting some common rules that everybody must abide by, on and off the field. Of course there's a loss of autonomy, but without it the enterprise wouldn't function at all. And of course people can argue about how far to extend the competing principles.
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:46 PM   #928
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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You could change "the government" to "one of the parties", and this will still be true.
Doesn't work if you substitute "insurance company." Because then everybody is booing, except people who took Econ in college.

Edited because I lost track of who's winning and who's losing.

Last edited by Atticus Grinch; 03-21-2012 at 08:02 PM..
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:36 PM   #929
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Having a sports league involves setting some common rules that everybody must abide by, on and off the field. Of course there's a loss of autonomy, but without it the enterprise wouldn't function at all. And of course people can argue about how far to extend the competing principles.
Translation: I believe America should become a communist state.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:37 PM   #930
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Re: Any Saints fans around here?

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??? cite please?
All of the cases I'm aware of involving sports leagues have been brought from the outside.
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