Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm not sure it's just about money. I'd like to know where the parents engaged in this arms race find the time for it.

There are all of these helicopter sorts who appear to have nothing to do but take the kids to practice, to special coaching, and to watch and critique every game. And volunteer coach!

What do these people do for a living? Some are well off sorts with time to burn. But most are middle class to affluent sorts who seem to have magically found 30 hours in a day.

Some of this is jealousy at the fact I don't have the time, nor does my spouse. But some of it is also annoyance.

This is the new reality of parenting in this country. Your kids are overscheduled from jump. And the parents are forced to figure it the fuck out.

My mother said to me years ago that she was concerned that my daughter was too overscheduled and she should just have some time to play with other kids. I told her that after playground years are over, that's just not possible. Every kid is scheduled. It's not just sports. So there is no one available to just get together and play with. You can't go up the street and ring someone's bell and get them to come out to play. They're all being trained somewhere. Whatever your kid is interested in requires a commitment that I and none of my friends could imagine when we were growing up. We just went out and played whatever sport was in season, organized our own games, saved up for equipment, etc. Playing an instrument only happened through school. Hell, everything that required some type of training pretty much happened through school. And rich kids and poor kids were on equal ground (except when it came to SAT courses, of course).

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Many of these people are making poor choices. Their kids are not good enough to get scholarships, they have perhaps too many kids, and their time might be better spent in a commercial/working endeavors which would better equip them to pay for the kids' college. I fear a lot of them will spend all these years collecting trophies that'll wind up in a dusty garage, while their kids later head off to college to collect debt, which will preclude them from participating positively in the economy.

I grasp the attraction of one's kid excelling in a sport, and that team participation schools one for later group participation in the workplace. But many of these parents go way too far, and they create an unhealthy arms race. And I think a lot of these parents need to understand, Reliving your youth through Junior is not reliving your youth. The school sports star phase of your ride through the mortal coil is Over. Assume the appropriate spectator position.

All facts. If parents invested the money they spend on sports they'd have a significant chunk of change to spend on school. And a lot of the parents I run into from my daughter's teams (or the opposing teams) are fucking nuts. Seriously.

I admit that I am more vocal when it comes to basketball because I know when the ref is screwing up. (And I'm glad my daughter played soccer, which kept me completely quiet the first 5 years because I surely didn't have the understanding of the sport to even question a call.) But my few comments are limited to really bad calls. These asshole parents are questioning coaches at games and think their kids should be playing at all times and should have the ball at all times when they're playing. They are completely delusional. I wouldn't coach a team if they paid me double what I make now.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

I am so happy my kids are total nerds

eom

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

The Messi example is a little complicated from a club vs. country perspective. The investment Barcelona made in him has paid off ridiculous dividends, but his move to Spain at a young age enraged many in Argentina, and there are many that argue that the rift between Messi and Argentina soccer has been a reason that he has dramatically underperformed on the national stage (last night excepted) while at the same time being arguably the best player in the world for Barcelona.

I watched a thing on one of those news magazines on Spain's soccer academies. I think it's nuts to identify kids who are talented and then move them at a young age into a boarding school where they spend inordinate amounts of time being trained so that you can then feed them into the professional soccer machine. It's absolutely crazy. Is it worse than what we have set up? I can't tell you. But what happens in Spain to all the poor kids who love to play soccer who don't get picked? Because I know what happens here.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think the issue is that the game is too expensive for younger kids, so unless they are less likely to have the opportunity to get spotted and pulled into the pipeline. For my teams, the biggest expense is fields, for which we pay the local school systems. The second biggest expense is coaching. Nothing else comes close. If there were more fields, and if the local governments (school districts) weren't using the rental fees from them to balance otherwise upside-down budgets, it would be much cheaper.

We left WCFC for a different travel team/academy for a number of reasons. But here are their facilities:

Main field and field house:



Full facilities layout (including dedicated parking):



Please notice that every field is fully lit for night games. And we played other academies whose (multiple) facilities are bigger and way nicer. Kids must buy new uniforms every single year even though the colors and designs rarely change. They're not trying to bring the budget down. They're trying to blow it up to draw the money. That's what they want. They don't give a shit about actual development. They want to grow their business. I saw kids who were amazing playing NPL who should have been on ECNL teams within the same club! They don't move them up. In fact, the new thing is getting an academy classification and bringing in kids from somewhere else to spend money on that new and highest level. Hell, the head of player development at WCFC told me that my daughter was the best goalie he has, but he couldn't move her up because the parents of the girl who had been playing at a higher level would be upset and might leave. And they have multiple kids playing, so...

This shit is a business. They don't give a fuck about the kids. We left and went to a smaller program with a coach who is actually focused on developing kids and having fun.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

The best players in our area don't play in high school at all, because their clubs want them to play through the winter (soccer is a winter sport here). My oldest plays on the HS team, and the level of play is much lower than the club teams, because the players are relatively new to each other and don't have that many practices before the season starts. He loves playing for the school team too, but it's not the path to playing in college for those who care about that.

Yep. This is exactly right. If your kid is good enough, and you pick the right travel team, those teams will allow your kid to play another sport and miss some practices and games when they conflict. But it's always a fight. A lot simply will not allow it. We try to steer away from those programs.

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I have three kids who play a sport each, and we barely make that work. I have no idea how we'd manage if they added another sport. Who can do that?

I have one daughter. And I do less heavy lifting than my ex because I can rarely get to weekday games. But I do the weekend stuff and we switch off when it comes to travel tournaments. She's doing North Carolina. I'll probably do Massachusetts, etc. Her other daughter is not interested in sports. If she were, I couldn't imagine how it would work. I can't imagine how you do it with three kids!

TM

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I watched a thing on one of those news magazines on Spain's soccer academies. I think it's nuts to identify kids who are talented and then move them at a young age into a boarding school where they spend inordinate amounts of time being trained so that you can then feed them into the professional soccer machine. It's absolutely crazy. Is it worse than what we have set up? I can't tell you. But what happens in Spain to all the poor kids who love to play soccer who don't get picked? Because I know what happens here.

TM

Graham was telling me that a lot of the poor Latino kids in this part of the world play for fun and none with the idea that it's the way out of poverty or to college or whatever. And their parents and others keep an eye on them in case someone shows some real talent. Then they get sent back to wherever their family came from (especially to Mexico and Honduras) to be developed there because the programs there are so much better and they have a much better chance of success than they ever would in the US system.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I have three kids who play a sport each, and we barely make that work. I have no idea how we'd manage if they added another sport. Who can do that?

You let yourself get forced into playing zone defense. Strictly man-to-man and maybe there's room for more.

Although y'all are scaring me with all this. Tiny Baby may have to stick to competitive reading.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I admit that I am more vocal when it comes to basketball because I know when the ref is screwing up.

I'm the worst at questioning refs and I'm trying to stop doing it now, well in advance of any youth sports participation.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Although y'all are scaring me with all this. Tiny Baby may have to stick to competitive reading.

Enh. I wouldn't be overly concerned. If you have a kid who is clearly a star and needs that talent developed (sports, chess, music, or anything, really), then you'll do it. But if your kid really just loves something, manage your own expectations and do what you can to help them spend time doing whatever that is.

My hope is that my kid can use sports to help her resume for really good D-III schools. I'm not one of these lunatics who is shooting for a scholarship. And, frankly, if your kid gets a scholarship to a shitty D-II school or a crappy D-I school, is that the best thing for them or you?

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

I'm the worst at questioning refs and I'm trying to stop doing it now, well in advance of any youth sports participation.

I had a ref turn to me during summer travel ball and say, "You know what? You're right. I messed that one up." Couldn't say a damn thing. And then we were tight and joking the rest of the game. That's a ref who knows what he's doing.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Yep. This is exactly right. If your kid is good enough, and you pick the right travel team, those teams will allow your kid to play another sport and miss some practices and games when they conflict. But it's always a fight. A lot simply will not allow it. We try to steer away from those programs.

I have one daughter. And I do less heavy lifting than my ex because I can rarely get to weekday games. But I do the weekend stuff and we switch off when it comes to travel tournaments. She's doing North Carolina. I'll probably do Massachusetts, etc. Her other daughter is not interested in sports. If she were, I couldn't imagine how it would work. I can't imagine how you do it with three kids!

My oldest played baseball for a while, but then ended when the next child started to have practices. I work 50 miles from home and take a train every day, so you can imagine my commute. My wife works twelve-hour shifts on an odd schedule. Thank God my oldest drives now. Also, HopSkipDrive.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Enh. I wouldn't be overly concerned. If you have a kid who is clearly a star and needs that talent developed (sports, chess, music, or anything, really), then you'll do it. But if your kid really just loves something, manage your own expectations and do what you can to help them spend time doing whatever that is.

My hope is that my kid can use sports to help her resume for really good D-III schools. I'm not one of these lunatics who is shooting for a scholarship. And, frankly, if your kid gets a scholarship to a shitty D-II school or a crappy D-I school, is that the best thing for them or you?

TM

I want my kids to play team sports through high school to have had that experience, but they don't need the pressure of having to get a scholarship. I think my oldest could play D-II or D-III, but he seems to want to go to the sort of D-I school whose team he'll never make, and he's OK with that.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

My oldest played baseball for a while, but then ended when the next child started to have practices. I work 50 miles from home and take a train every day, so you can imagine my commute. My wife works twelve-hour shifts on an odd schedule. Thank God my oldest drives now. Also, HopSkipDrive.

Shit is crazy. My mom used the: "Go outside and find someone to play with, but be home by ____" method, as did all my friends' parents. When my daughter was young enough that I was taking her to playgrounds, I had to tell her to go up to kids and ask if they wanted to play or if she could play too. Much anxiety ensued until she actually did it and then had lots of fun. Hell, as recently as 3 years or so ago, I had to tell her to go ask a group of adults and kids playing an unorganized soccer game if she could play. Had a ball, of course.

I wouldn't do that now. She'd embarrass and anger them. I can't even play around with her anymore in soccer. It's completely pointless for her and for me. I clearly suck, but I can't believe how skilled she and her friends are. It is amazing.

I make sure I beat her soundly when we play basketball or ping pong, though. No mercy.

TM

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Enh. I wouldn't be overly concerned. If you have a kid who is clearly a star and needs that talent developed (sports, chess, music, or anything, really), then you'll do it. But if your kid really just loves something, manage your own expectations and do what you can to help them spend time doing whatever that is.

My hope is that my kid can use sports to help her resume for really good D-III schools. I'm not one of these lunatics who is shooting for a scholarship. And, frankly, if your kid gets a scholarship to a shitty D-II school or a crappy D-I school, is that the best thing for them or you?

TM

2

Father Marshall knows best.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I watched a thing on one of those news magazines on Spain's soccer academies. I think it's nuts to identify kids who are talented and then move them at a young age into a boarding school where they spend inordinate amounts of time being trained so that you can then feed them into the professional soccer machine. It's absolutely crazy. Is it worse than what we have set up? I can't tell you. But what happens in Spain to all the poor kids who love to play soccer who don't get picked? Because I know what happens here.

TM

I know very little about youth development, either in the elite European academies, or in the traveling programs here. I have no idea what the fix is for the U.S. Men's team, or why it is underperforming (while the women's team excels), although the points you raise about economic and racial segregation in youth development seem like a problem from any number of perspectives. My daughter is a theater kid, which is its own slice of crazy after a certain level, but at least we don't have to travel for theater tournaments every weekend. Finally, I'm glad to see you acknowledge that soccer actually requires skills -- I seem to recall this being a bit of a change in perspective from many years ago.