No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I miss the "I don't like soccer but let's debate the offsides rule" days, personally

Way more into soccer. Watch with my daughter, who is a goalie, all the time. I like it much more, but I still can't fucking stand the flopping. If you catch me on facebook, I'm the exact same way about basketball and that's a sport I know and love. Used to love Griffin and Paul, but now I can't stand them because of the flopping. And don't get me started on Harden.

But I don't understand why one can't discuss a rule that I don't understand. As far as I can tell, the only responses I got were of the "it prevents players from camping out on one end of the field," variety. When I asked why that's a concern since the other team could either take an advantage of one fewer player against them on defense or leave a player back to guard against cherry-picking, all I heard was silence. I've since researched it a bit and spoken to people who actually understand the game and apparently, the rule is supposed to protect the beauty of the perfectly-timed pass. Makes sense, I guess. I still think if you removed the rule, there would be more (or maybe different, to be fair) strategy. If it turned into one team dumping the ball into the other team's end--similar to hockey--that would ruin it.

TM

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

But I don't understand why one can't discuss a rule that I don't understand. As far as I can tell, the only responses I got were of the "it prevents players from camping out on one end of the field," variety. When I asked why that's a concern since the other team could either take an advantage of one fewer player against them on defense or leave a player back to guard against cherry-picking, all I heard was silence. I've since researched it a bit and spoken to people who actually understand the game and apparently, the rule is supposed to protect the beauty of the perfectly-timed pass. Makes sense, I guess. I still think if you removed the rule, there would be more (or maybe different, to be fair) strategy. If it turned into one team dumping the ball into the other team's end--similar to hockey--that would ruin it.

TM

I didn't say we can't discuss that rule. I honestly enjoyed that discussion.

But, I think I realized the true answer sometime after the discussion ended.

The offsides rule does not apply on a corner kick. On a corner kick, the players all jam up in front of the goal, and everyone jumps around hoping to get a lucky tip into the goal. Sometimes you see beautiful scoring plays off a corner kick, but more often it's a lot of junky hits on the ball, and the goalie really can't do anything but try to punch the ball -- no playing angles, no coordinating the defense, nothing.

Imagine every offensive play allowing for that -- players running just to get into the box, or hanging back on offense so that they can run back, and the offense reduced to "just kick the ball really hard towards to goal and hope someone manages to pop it in". I think you'd get a higher-scoring game, but one that was essentially a series of "corner" kicks -- with the corner being whatever midfield point where a player thought "I have enough teammates in the box to take a shot and hope for the best."

You would lose all of the passing and technique that is designed to open up the defense (but that, I acknowledge, in the hands of some teams becomes boring as paste, e.g. Greece).

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I didn't say we can't discuss that rule. I honestly enjoyed that discussion.

But, I think I realized the true answer sometime after the discussion ended.

The offsides rule does not apply on a corner kick. On a corner kick, the players all jam up in front of the goal, and everyone jumps around hoping to get a lucky tip into the goal. Sometimes you see beautiful scoring plays off a corner kick, but more often it's a lot of junky hits on the ball, and the goalie really can't do anything but try to punch the ball -- no playing angles, no coordinating the defense, nothing.

Imagine every offensive play allowing for that -- players running just to get into the box, or hanging back on offense so that they can run back, and the offense reduced to "just kick the ball really hard towards to goal and hope someone manages to pop it in". I think you'd get a higher-scoring game, but one that was essentially a series of "corner" kicks -- with the corner being whatever midfield point where a player thought "I have enough teammates in the box to take a shot and hope for the best."

You would lose all of the passing and technique that is designed to open up the defense (but that, I acknowledge, in the hands of some teams becomes boring as paste, e.g. Greece).

I can see that. But I disagree on corners. I think those are some of the most exciting points in every game. But yeah, it would be a different game if you could all bunch up in the box. I imagine that would be fixable by changing the rule to a modified offsides where you'd make the call if players were in the penalty box and offsides. Hell, maybe they'd all just bunch up on the edge of the box.

I just know there are situations when it definitely should not be called. And maybe you can't fix for that without fucking up everything else that's beautiful about the game. But there's nothing worse than a potential breakaway, when a defender sees what's coming and jumps before the pass to ensure an offsides call.*

TM

*We both know that's not true. Flopping and writhing is worse.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

But I disagree on corners. I think those are some of the most exciting points in every game.

I bet your daughter hates them. I was a goalie (I sucked), my brother was a goalie (amazingly good, a European coach tried to recruit him for their 18-19 year old farm team, even though he was under 6 feet tall), goalies all hate corners. Too fucking stressful, too little you can really control.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I bet your daughter hates them. I was a goalie (I sucked), my brother was a goalie (amazingly good, a European coach tried to recruit him for their 18-19 year old farm team, even though he was under 6 feet tall), goalies all hate corners. Too fucking stressful, too little you can really control.

Our goalie in HS was 6'5". If you got near him and the ball during a corner kicked you were getting punched in the face. Even during practice.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

Our goalie in HS was 6'5". If you got near him and the ball during a corner kicked you were getting punched in the face. Even during practice.

Graham was a goalie and ended up on the All New England team. He says his hair was to mid back and dyed blue at the time, so he'd wear it in massive pony tails on both sides of his head and then yell like a banshee at anyone who came near his goal. Not too many players wanted to get close.

The All New England team went to England to play some friendlies. The Brits were not as intimidated.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

Graham was a goalie and ended up on the All New England team. He says his hair was to mid back and dyed blue at the time, so he'd wear it in massive pony tails and then yell like a banshee at anyone who came near his goal. Not too many players wanted to get close.

I thought when you have more than one pony tail they turn into pig tails?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

He says his hair was to mid back and dyed blue at the time, so he'd wear it in massive pony tails on both sides of his head and then yell like a banshee at anyone who came near his goal. Not too many players wanted to get close.

This doesn't sound the least bit intimidating.

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

Graham was a goalie and ended up on the All New England team. He says his hair was to mid back and dyed blue at the time, so he'd wear it in massive pony tails on both sides of his head and then yell like a banshee at anyone who came near his goal. Not too many players wanted to get close.

The All New England team went to England to play some friendlies. The Brits were not as intimidated.

I played in goal when our regular goalie was injured, and our back up keeper was unavailable, and every other person I knew who played in net or had at least once played in net, or at a minimum had never explicitly said that they would never play in net, was unavailable. I kind of liked it. I honestly don't recall having extreme negative feelings about corner kicks.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I bet your daughter hates them. I was a goalie (I sucked), my brother was a goalie (amazingly good, a European coach tried to recruit him for their 18-19 year old farm team, even though he was under 6 feet tall), goalies all hate corners. Too fucking stressful, too little you can really control.

No argument there. I like when she anticipates and punches a good ball out of the box (sts), though.

TM

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by Sidd Finch

I bet your daughter hates them. I was a goalie (I sucked), my brother was a goalie (amazingly good, a European coach tried to recruit him for their 18-19 year old farm team, even though he was under 6 feet tall), goalies all hate corners. Too fucking stressful, too little you can really control.

Same here, and I'm basically the same size now as I was at 15, so I could fill a lot more of the net.

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Way more into soccer. Watch with my daughter, who is a goalie, all the time. I like it much more, but I still can't fucking stand the flopping. If you catch me on facebook, I'm the exact same way about basketball and that's a sport I know and love. Used to love Griffin and Paul, but now I can't stand them because of the flopping. And don't get me started on Harden.

But I don't understand why one can't discuss a rule that I don't understand. As far as I can tell, the only responses I got were of the "it prevents players from camping out on one end of the field," variety. When I asked why that's a concern since the other team could either take an advantage of one fewer player against them on defense or leave a player back to guard against cherry-picking, all I heard was silence. I've since researched it a bit and spoken to people who actually understand the game and apparently, the rule is supposed to protect the beauty of the perfectly-timed pass. Makes sense, I guess. I still think if you removed the rule, there would be more (or maybe different, to be fair) strategy. If it turned into one team dumping the ball into the other team's end--similar to hockey--that would ruin it.

TM

The offside rule in soccer is pretty much the same thing as in hockey. When your daughter was younger, if your experience was at all similar to mine, was that someone would get the ball and one of two things would happen: em would blast the ball down toward the other teams goal or every body on the field but the goalies would form this rugby sort of scrum where all the kids kicked each other in the ankle until someone got the ball loose. Then that kid would blast the ball down to the goal. The offside rule keeps the players from hanging around the goal, waiting for a chance to cherry-pick a loose ball.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

The offside rule in soccer is pretty much the same thing as in hockey. When your daughter was younger, if your experience was at all similar to mine, was that someone would get the ball and one of two things would happen: em would blast the ball down toward the other teams goal or every body on the field but the goalies would form this rugby sort of scrum where all the kids kicked each other in the ankle until someone got the ball loose. Then that kid would blast the ball down to the goal. The offside rule keeps the players from hanging around the goal, waiting for a chance to cherry-pick a loose ball.

Thanks. You've been hepful.

TM

[taxwonk]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Thanks. You've been hepful.

TM

My pleasure.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by taxwonk

The offside rule in soccer is pretty much the same thing as in hockey. When your daughter was younger, if your experience was at all similar to mine, was that someone would get the ball and one of two things would happen: em would blast the ball down toward the other teams goal or every body on the field but the goalies would form this rugby sort of scrum where all the kids kicked each other in the ankle until someone got the ball loose. Then that kid would blast the ball down to the goal. The offside rule keeps the players from hanging around the goal, waiting for a chance to cherry-pick a loose ball.

That may be a fallout of the rule but doesn't explain what is was intended to do. and by the way, the leagues around here don't even use it until U-8. It's complicated rules, with some subtle exceptions.

The rule might actually benefit offense- some teams (Italy) are very defensive. If a defensive team kept its forward down by the goal, then the other teams has to keep its defenders back, and then its midfielders can't go too far forward, so it will tougher to score?