Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Sorry if the rest of us were talking above you. Here's Urban Dictionary.

Dude- I understand big words, I've degrees from Harvard AND Yale. And I've recently been considering claiming a degree from Cal Poly- just working out how that could be possible timeline wise, TYVM. Your word choices just make no sense for someone trying to convince people. And your plan B, tell your opponent to fuck off, or Plan C, delete your opponent's post? I don't think either are particularly skilled rhetorical memes. Have you considered accusing your opponents of being like Hitler?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You just said that I made up facts. What did I make up?

You, otoh, did make up facts. You said I said “all” where I said “majority.” When I flagged that, you went back to another discussion (it was not the same conversation).

JFC. You said "all" to me. I told you that the right wing has its own facts. You said, "but now we get to the serious stupidity of what you actually believe: That it’s only conservatives who have magical realities. Many progressives still believe trumpkins are all bigots. They believe in this crazy world where the only people who disagree with them are hopelessly backward and full of hate. They’re deluded in exactly the same way their conservative counterparts are. The only difference is they aren’t as cynical as the right." A few more posts back and forth and then it's today and here we are. If you forgot what you said last week, whatever. I do believe that conservatives have their own reality, and the left does not. To the extent that people like TM say things like "trumpkins are all bigots," they are making a point about bigotry that you disagree with, not relying on made-up facts.

Now, TM has explained the logic under which he claims a majority of Trump voters are bigots. I have stated I believe 33-40% are. So now I ask you, are a majority of Trump voters bigots? And while we’re at it, what would be your estimate of the percentage be?

I don't know and I don't care right now, because it has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The answer to that question is a function of how you use the term "bigot" to refer to someone you don't know particular well with a complicated array of beliefs. It doesn't have anything to do with what you and I were talking about before you went off on this tangent.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Dude- I understand big words, I've degrees from Harvard AND Yale. And I've recently been considering claiming a degree from Cal Poly- just working out how that could be possible timeline wise, TYVM. Your word choices just make no sense for someone trying to convince people. And your plan B, tell your opponent to fuck off, or Plan C, delete your opponent's post? I don't think either are particularly skilled rhetorical memes. Have you considered accusing your opponents of being like Hitler?

My grandfather used to say, you can tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

My grandfather used to say, you can tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much.

Yeah, I’ve told you before, I feel for your gramps. I was as surprised as anyone to find that the laminated naked photo of the 40s hot chick in the common room in Pennypacker was your grandma. Word is she didn’t give any Harvard man much, just a piece(s).

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

JFC. You said "all" to me. I told you that the right wing has its own facts. You said, "but now we get to the serious stupidity of what you actually believe: That it’s only conservatives who have magical realities. Many progressives still believe trumpkins are all bigots. They believe in this crazy world where the only people who disagree with them are hopelessly backward and full of hate. They’re deluded in exactly the same way their conservative counterparts are. The only difference is they aren’t as cynical as the right." A few more posts back and forth and then it's today and here we are. If you forgot what you said last week, whatever. I do believe that conservatives have their own reality, and the left does not. To the extent that people like TM say things like "trumpkins are all bigots," they are making a point about bigotry that you disagree with, not relying on made-up facts.



I don't know and I don't care right now, because it has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The answer to that question is a function of how you use the term "bigot" to refer to someone you don't know particular well with a complicated array of beliefs. It doesn't have anything to do with what you and I were talking about before you went off on this tangent.

Your first paragraph is crap; your second is a duck. Say what you’re thinking or shut up.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Your first paragraph is crap; your second is a duck. Say what you’re thinking or shut up.

Much of my first paragraph is crap because I quoted you. The second is a duck. I'm not having that stupid conversation with you about what "bigotry" means again, so I guess I'll shut up. Knock yourself out.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Clown.

TM

I prefer to use the phrase "brain dead cock juggler." That way I avoid disparaging those whimsical folks in make-up and comical wigs whose only goal is to try to make people laugh with their squirting lapel flowers and slapstick antics.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

I prefer to use the phrase "brain dead cock juggler." That way I avoid disparaging those whimsical folks in make-up and comical wigs whose only goal is to try to make people laugh with their squirting lapel flowers and slapstick antics.

Yes, but now you're disparaging the brain dead. The brain dead do much less harm in the world.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Yes, but now you're disparaging the brain dead. The brain dead do much less harm in the world.

Not the ones who are out there juggling cocks.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

JFC. You said "all" to me. I told you that the right wing has its own facts. You said, "but now we get to the serious stupidity of what you actually believe: That it’s only conservatives who have magical realities. Many progressives still believe trumpkins are all bigots. They believe in this crazy world where the only people who disagree with them are hopelessly backward and full of hate. They’re deluded in exactly the same way their conservative counterparts are. The only difference is they aren’t as cynical as the right." A few more posts back and forth and then it's today and here we are. If you forgot what you said last week, whatever. I do believe that conservatives have their own reality, and the left does not. To the extent that people like TM say things like "trumpkins are all bigots," they are making a point about bigotry that you disagree with, not relying on made-up facts.

Let's unpack this quote of me on which you disingenuously hang your hat:

"[B]ut now we get to the serious stupidity of what you actually believe: That it’s only conservatives who have magical realities."

You do believe that. You've said it. Several times.

Many progressives still believe trumpkins are all bigots.

Many progressives do believe this. Did I say "all" progressives believe this? No. That would be untrue. As untrue as you saying all or most conservatives have false realities. Many conservatives do have false realities. But you can't say anywhere near all or even a majority of them do because that's a facially ludicrous statement.

Nor can you say it is only conservatives who live in fake realities. Again, you're talking out your ass when you say that. There are tons of progressives, moderates, liberals, right wingers, and conservatives who live in delusions. Some people are deluded only on certain issues.

Kurt Andersen wrote a very funny book outlining the various fantasy worlds in which Americans of every background have resided historically. https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ndersen-review

But hey -- don't let these sorts of pesky facts stand in the way of you stating that it's only conservatives who live in fantasyland.

Now, in reply to this, you'll walk back your position by saying, "I never said it was all conservatives, or only conservatives... I said conservatives do it more often, and to a greater extent." To that I'd say, congrats to those merely deluded progressives, liberals, and moderates out there! They should thank their stars they're not severely deluded like their conservative brethren!

They believe in this crazy world where the only people who disagree with them are hopelessly backward and full of hate.

This describes many progressives. You seriously going to argue that?

They’re deluded in exactly the same way their conservative counterparts are. The only difference is they aren’t as cynical as the right.

A progressive who believes all people who disagree with him, or who support Trump, are full of hate and hopelessly backward (and many of them do indeed believe that) is deluded in exactly the same manner Trumpkins who believe fantasies fed to them by their crazy media outlets are deluded. These are both low information voters.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Real live quote from Trumpster relative I did not get together with this Thanksgiving: "You can't call me a racist just because I believe white people are superior."

I'm sorry about your gene pool. But is there any reason to write this here other than to re-emphasize the stereotype that all Trump voters are knuckle dragging troglodytes?

I mean, I get it... It's fun to make fun of the dimwits. Makes you feel like the better person, creates a sense of community (someone here will surely give me an atta boy for writing this!).

But aren't you just feeding similar minded folks empty calories by doing this sort of thing? You aren't changing that bigoted person's mind. A person making that statement is past saving, in many regards. He's interesting and relevant why?

Doesn't it make more sense to focus on the Trump voters who voted for economic reasons? These are people a lot of whom voted for Obama in 2008. These are people many of whom are actually thinking about issues and figured Trump was the better bet. And for a lot of them, he was.

Now, of course, you can write these people off as nihilists of a sort who'll happily deal with an odious, racist leader in exchange for stock market gains or low taxes. But in doing that, you're ignoring your real enemy here.

There are loads of reasons small business owners almost always vote Republican. I needn't list them here. Some of it has to do with GOP defunding of one particular agency small business owners fear and detest. Some of it has to do with the perception that GOP regimes unlock "animal spirits" and create growth. Some of it has to do with people believing GOP control leads to easier lending and better rates. The reasons are myriad. And that's just one sector of the Trump voters - small business owners. The list of reasons other groups of people voted for Trump, and vote for GOP candidates more generally, could go on for volumes.

I don't say this to deflect focus from the bigots. The pure, hardened bigot vote is always there for the GOP. But they're incurable. You can talk, talk, talk, but nothing changes these people. The real discussion of Trumpism, and how it might be countered, requires a focus on the complex reasoning of those who voted for him for economic and policy reasons. These people are thinkers. They are rational actors. What made them pull the lever is far more important than what made a moronic bigot pull the lever.

When you continue focusing exclusively on Trump's most lurid followers, I think you take a form of bait. To have that discussion repeatedly and elevate the bigoted sentiments of that slice of his voters comes at cost of ignoring and letting off the hook those who voted for Trump for self-serving economic reasons. And they're a much bigger piece of the Trump coalition heading into 2020.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Let's unpack this quote of me on which you disingenuously hang your hat:



You do believe that. You've said it. Several times.



Many progressives do believe this. Did I say "all" progressives believe this? No. That would be untrue. As untrue as you saying all or most conservatives have false realities. Many conservatives do have false realities. But you can't say anywhere near all or even a majority of them do because that's a facially ludicrous statement.

Nor can you say it is only conservatives who live in fake realities. Again, you're talking out your ass when you say that. There are tons of progressives, moderates, liberals, right wingers, and conservatives who live in delusions. Some people are deluded only on certain issues.

Kurt Andersen wrote a very funny book outlining the various fantasy worlds in which Americans of every background have resided historically. https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ndersen-review

But hey -- don't let these sorts of pesky facts stand in the way of you stating that it's only conservatives who live in fantasyland.

Now, in reply to this, you'll walk back your position by saying, "I never said it was all conservatives, or only conservatives... I said conservatives do it more often, and to a greater extent." To that I'd say, congrats to those merely deluded progressives, liberals, and moderates out there! They should thank their stars they're not severely deluded like their conservative brethren!



This describes many progressives. You seriously going to argue that?



A progressive who believes all people who disagree with him, or who support Trump, are full of hate and hopelessly backward (and many of them do indeed believe that) is deluded in exactly the same manner Trumpkins who believe fantasies fed to them by their crazy media outlets are deluded. These are both low information voters.

I said that conservatives have constructed their own factual reality, something the left does not do. There is nothing comparable on the left. When someone like TM says something like, all Trump voters are bigoted, they are not living in a different factual reality. They are interpreting the same facts available to you and drawing a different conclusion than you do about something unknowable, the state of mind of other humans. There is nothing on the left comparable to the conservative media that have conservatives believing that Ukraine meddled in the 2016 election, or that Adam Schiff helped frame the whistleblower's complaint.

Who are these unnamed "progressives" who you think are similarly deluded? You can't name one. Neither does Kurt Andersen, at least insofar as that review of his book says. What is the left's equivalent of FOX News? There is none, and that's really the point. You said the problem with the media is that it's lazy. I said no, the bigger problem is that there's a conservative media that is devoted to propaganda, such that many conservatives believe "facts" that aren't true. Do you think the media today is any lazier than it was in days gone by?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm sorry about your gene pool. But is there any reason to write this here other than to re-emphasize the stereotype that all Trump voters are knuckle dragging troglodytes?

I mean, I get it... It's fun to make fun of the dimwits. Makes you feel like the better person, creates a sense of community (someone here will surely give me an atta boy for writing this!).

But aren't you just feeding similar minded folks empty calories by doing this sort of thing? You aren't changing that bigoted person's mind. A person making that statement is past saving, in many regards. He's interesting and relevant why?

Doesn't it make more sense to focus on the Trump voters who voted for economic reasons? These are people a lot of whom voted for Obama in 2008. These are people many of whom are actually thinking about issues and figured Trump was the better bet. And for a lot of them, he was.

Now, of course, you can write these people off as nihilists of a sort who'll happily deal with an odious, racist leader in exchange for stock market gains or low taxes. But in doing that, you're ignoring your real enemy here.

There are loads of reasons small business owners almost always vote Republican. I needn't list them here. Some of it has to do with GOP defunding of one particular agency small business owners fear and detest. Some of it has to do with the perception that GOP regimes unlock "animal spirits" and create growth. Some of it has to do with people believing GOP control leads to easier lending and better rates. The reasons are myriad. And that's just one sector of the Trump voters - small business owners. The list of reasons other groups of people voted for Trump, and vote for GOP candidates more generally, could go on for volumes.

I don't say this to deflect focus from the bigots. The pure, hardened bigot vote is always there for the GOP. But they're incurable. You can talk, talk, talk, but nothing changes these people. The real discussion of Trumpism, and how it might be countered, requires a focus on the complex reasoning of those who voted for him for economic and policy reasons. These people are thinkers. They are rational actors. What made them pull the lever is far more important than what made a moronic bigot pull the lever.

When you continue focusing exclusively on Trump's most lurid followers, I think you take a form of bait. To have that discussion repeatedly and elevate the bigoted sentiments of that slice of his voters comes at cost of ignoring and letting off the hook those who voted for Trump for self-serving economic reasons. And they're a much bigger piece of the Trump coalition heading into 2020.

You probably wouldn't call that particular relative Trump's most lurid follower. He's a regional president for a financial institution you would have heard of, with an Ivy League MBA. But he is a Charles Murray style believer that whites have superior IQs, thinks that is just a genetic fact, and objects to being called a racist because in his view he is not being discriminatory just stating facts. He feels broadly disgruntled that his own children have to compete with African Americans for college seats, and is convinced they are at a disadvantage because of it, and resents that he is expected to hire diversely in his own operation. And, sure, he also likes getting tax cuts for him and his buddies.

I also have some of Trump's most lurid followers in my gene pool.

This kind of white conservative victimization thing, with its attendant racism, is core to Trumpism and is often part of the Republican elite's perspective, not just the flannel clad Trump rally attendee you think of as lurid. Here's some good background on its historical roots, in a few short tweets: https://twitter.com/LarryGlickman/st...10326027976709

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You probably wouldn't call that particular relative Trump's most lurid follower. He's a regional president for a financial institution you would have heard of, with an Ivy League MBA. But he is a Charles Murray style believer that whites have superior IQs, thinks that is just a genetic fact, and objects to being called a racist because in his view he is not being discriminatory just stating facts. He feels broadly disgruntled that his own children have to compete with African Americans for college seats, and is convinced they are at a disadvantage because of it, and resents that he is expected to hire diversely in his own operation. And, sure, he also likes getting tax cuts for him and his buddies.

I also have some of Trump's most lurid followers in my gene pool.

This kind of white conservative victimization thing, with its attendant racism, is core to Trumpism and is often part of the Republican elite's perspective, not just the flannel clad Trump rally attendee you think of as lurid. Here's some good background on its historical roots, in a few short tweets: https://twitter.com/LarryGlickman/st...10326027976709

Sebby has this notion that economic insecurity and bigotry are two separate things. That link I posted yesterday says they are intertwined:

Two popular explanations have emerged post-election: 1) economic anxiety, and 2) racial resentment. Many commentators have argued that a sense of economic loss drove many white working-class voters toward Trump. Meanwhile, here at the Monkey Cage, Michael Tesler has explained that support for Trump was especially linked to racial resentment.

Examining our data from the GenForward Survey, we find a hybrid explanation. First, white millennial Trump voters were likely to believe in something we call “white vulnerability” — the perception that whites, through no fault of their own, are losing ground to other groups. Second, racial resentment was the primary driver of white vulnerability — even when accounting for income, education level or employment. ...

Contrary to what some have suggested, white millennial Trump voters were not in more economically precarious situations than non-Trump voters. Fully 86 percent of them reported being employed, a rate similar to non-Trump voters; and they were 14 percent less likely to be low income than white voters who did not support Trump. Employment and income were not significantly related to that sense of white vulnerability.

So what was? Racial resentment.

Even when controlling for partisanship, ideology, region and a host of other factors, white millennials fit Michael Tesler’s analysis, explored here. As he put it, economic anxiety isn’t driving racial resentment; rather, racial resentment is driving economic anxiety. We found, as he has in a larger population, that racial resentment is the biggest predictor of white vulnerability among white millennials. Economic variables like education, income and employment made a negligible difference.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

You probably wouldn't call that particular relative Trump's most lurid follower. He's a regional president for a financial institution you would have heard of, with an Ivy League MBA. But he is a Charles Murray style believer that whites have superior IQs, thinks that is just a genetic fact, and objects to being called a racist because in his view he is not being discriminatory just stating facts. He feels broadly disgruntled that his own children have to compete with African Americans for college seats, and is convinced they are at a disadvantage because of it, and resents that he is expected to hire diversely in his own operation. And, sure, he also likes getting tax cuts for him and his buddies.

I also have some of Trump's most lurid followers in my gene pool.

This kind of white conservative victimization thing, with its attendant racism, is core to Trumpism and is often part of the Republican elite's perspective, not just the flannel clad Trump rally attendee you think of as lurid. Here's some good background on its historical roots, in a few short tweets: https://twitter.com/LarryGlickman/st...10326027976709

I’ve read the Powell Memo. Some of the connections Glickman makes make sense. Some do not. But anyone citing the memo for any reason is a positive. That document has done a shitload of damage and should be studied as one of the most effective articulations of corporate arrogance ever drafted. It reads like corporations are divinely created entities.

Re your relative, his lack of basic scientific literacy (he probably doesn’t even know Murray’s arguments) puts him in the lurid camp. That you’ve an MBA doesn’t mean you aren’t a fool. (I could cite endless examples supporting the argument that an MBA can actually make one into a fool, but that’s a different discussion.)