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Old 08-07-2018, 05:47 PM   #2131
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I don't think using "milk" creates much confusion, but I have to say, I would consider it appropriately darwinian if that one created any confusion.
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Old 08-07-2018, 05:50 PM   #2132
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I think you think you are poking holes when you are quite often just stating an opposing position. The blinders you have is that when you do that, you think you're pointing out a weakness and you haven't considered the fact that what you're saying has been considered and discarded before you even brought it up. In fact, whenever you do you play the Sebby advocate, you are convinced that you are revealing some insight just because it's coming from (often) the right. And when it gets rejected you go into the "if only you guys could escape your tribalism!" bit.

I skipped most of this conversation. But from what I did see, people seemed to also be arguing that what he was actually saying was racist. Not saying there wasn't a bit of both. But you seem overly focused on the part that confirms your "everyone is a brain-dead tribalist" theory.

Again, didn't follow. But if you agree with someone, of course it's all good. What kind of response are you looking for?

This is not the standard I think anyone applies. I think it's fair to say that Trump voters are okay enough with Trump's racism (statements and policy) that it doesn't affect their support of him.

I also think that you think you have Trump voters figured out and it's all about the economy as far as you're concerned. You've been presented with studies that you have chosen to ignore in favor of your own conclusion. These studies have found that racism, sexism and status absolutely was what drove Trump voters. See:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/04/18/1718155115
https://psmag.com/social-justice/mor...-trump-victory

Obviously there were a number of factors. But, unless we're arguing over exactly how much racism, sexism, and xenophobia played, then we're back in realm of the article I posted last week about white fragility and the need to deny and get defensive whenever the topic is broached.

I think you're not picking up what I'm putting down. I just want you to consider that people have actually thought about both sides to a position before taking a stance. And that when you think you're poking holes, you're often just stating the other side.

"Poking holes" connotes the discovery of flaws. The act of discovering you disagree does not mean (i) you have discovered a flaw or (ii) you are revealing something that hasn't already been considered. When you get pushback, you throw the tribal accusation around, tell everyone they live in a bubble, and bring up your latest pretend cocktail party conversation. That's what's annoying.

TM
Sebby is part of the liberatarian bothsiderism bro-tribe, which is undoubtedly the most annoying of all tribes. I think one thing most liberals and conservatives can agree on is that this particular tribe should all be volunteered for a mission in one of Elon Musk's space shots to the land of soylent green.
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:10 PM   #2133
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Re: We are all Slave now.

This is why I cannot agree with the right. Can you imagine Obama supporters believing this shit?

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...e-authority-to

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Old 08-08-2018, 09:19 AM   #2134
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
This is why I cannot agree with the right. Can you imagine Obama supporters believing this shit?

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...e-authority-to

TM
[Channeling Sebby]

[Suspending Common Sense]

[Pivoting away from response]


Come on, isn't this the same as Alex Jones not being able to post to youtube?

[And now the gotcha!]

And where are the liberals objecting to that?
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:42 AM   #2135
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
[Channeling Sebby]

[Suspending Common Sense]

[Pivoting away from response]


Come on, isn't this the same as Alex Jones not being able to post to youtube?

[And now the gotcha!]

And where are the liberals objecting to that?
Don’t forget, I also voted for the Green Party in Ohio’s 12th last night!

And yes... Sam Harris, Alex Jones — all the same. “Alt Right” fantasists.
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:47 AM   #2136
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
This is why I cannot agree with the right. Can you imagine Obama supporters believing this shit?

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...e-authority-to

TM
No. But that’s only 1/2 of the right.

Shall we discuss the cuckoo pants views of the far left? I don’t think so because they’re only 1/3-1/2 of Democrats.
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:04 AM   #2137
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Don’t forget, I also voted for the Green Party in Ohio’s 12th last night!

And yes... Sam Harris, Alex Jones — all the same. “Alt Right” fantasists.
I figured you would have. After all, you thought Sarah Pallin was a genius, so I can only imagine how smart you think someone is whose family made it all the way from the Pleiades - that takes real brains!
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:05 AM   #2138
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Shall we discuss the cuckoo pants views of the far left? I don’t think so because they’re only 1/3-1/2 of Democrats.
Damn, man, you're really just asking for the bothersiderism bro mantel here, aren't you?
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:42 AM   #2139
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
I figured you would have. After all, you thought Sarah Pallin was a genius, so I can only imagine how smart you think someone is whose family made it all the way from the Pleiades - that takes real brains!
Where the fuck are you getting that shit from?
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:48 AM   #2140
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Damn, man, you're really just asking for the bothersiderism bro mantel here, aren't you?
I've never been anywhere near even close to aligned with the Bothering Party. Striking up random conversations with strangers, smoking near outdoor bistros, inviting friends to awareness events on Facebook, asking co-workers to join company softball teams... I can't think of a single plank of their platform with which I agree.

Get your facts straight.
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Old 08-08-2018, 11:50 AM   #2141
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I can only respond to what you have posted, not to the way that you shift your views in the next post. You accused MSNBC of being selective and of pushing narrative, two things that are inherent in reporting the news, but not of being ideological.

Reporters love a simple narrative, because they must select a few facts from all of the stuff that is happening and then turn into into a short story that will grab audience attention. Trying doing that without a strong narrative thrust. That's one reason that reporters love a good horse race.

You are maybe implying that MSNBC and Fox News are essentially alike in pushing an ideological narrative. If so, that's nuts. First, and tangentially, we have seen in recent years that Fox is willing to abandon ideas and positions to carry water for the conservative movement, which lately means that it basically serves Trump.

But setting that aside, the idea that mainstream institutions and their conservative alternatives are somehow flip sides of the same coin is an idea you love and is fundamentally wrong, as I said here, which you may have missed in today's back and forth. That doesn't mean that MSNBC is neutral. It means we have mainstream institutions, with their associated self-interests and biases, and we have minority conservative alternatives, formed in reaction to and out of grievance with the mainstream, with their own self-interests and biases. If you want to call the mainstream institutions "ideological," let's not get into a semantic discussion about what the word means (because that would be censoring me, bro) -- just admit that Fox and MSNBC are very different in significantly important ways, per my earlier post.
Nobody does intentional obtuseness like you.
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:15 PM   #2142
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
I think you think you are poking holes when you are quite often just stating an opposing position.
I started this by stating I agreed with Klein's sentiment, but that he has no right to tell Harris how to question Murray.

But sometimes I am taking a contrary position. When I do, I so state. Here, mine was a fundamental problem with what I saw (and see) as censorship of certain debates (unless conducted in the manner folks like Klein think they ought to be conducted).

Quote:
The blinders you have on keep you from seeing that when you do that, you think you're pointing out a weakness and you haven't considered the fact that what you're saying has been considered and discarded before you even brought it up.
I think GGG and Adder consider both sides and where the one they don't like has a point simply label the point invalid. When further pressed, they regress to insult (or in GGG's point, attempts to discredit the point made by aligning it with an undeniably negative thing like Trump).

Quote:
In fact, whenever you do play the Sebby Advocate, you are convinced that you are revealing some insight just because it's coming from (often) the right. And when it gets rejected you go into the "if only you guys could escape your tribalism!" bit.
GGG and Adder are tribalist. You've made a case you're not, so I'll take you at your word. Ty is not tribalist, nor is Hank.

I don't know what Ferrets is, but he doesn't seem tribalist.

Less is not tribalist.

Quote:
I skipped most of this conversation. But from what I did see, people seemed to also be arguing that what he was actually saying was racist. Not saying there wasn't a bit of both. But you seem overly focused on the part that confirms your "everyone is a brain-dead tribalist" theory.
Hank made that point. GGG and Adder didn't even consider the podcast. Which is fine, because they'd have reached the same view regardless.

Quote:
I think it's fair to say that Trump voters are okay enough with Trump's racism (statements and policy) that it doesn't affect their support of him.
Some are, some are not.

Quote:
I also think that you think you have Trump voters figured out and it's all about the economy as far as you're concerned. You've been presented with studies that you have chosen to ignore in favor of your own conclusion. These studies have found that racism, sexism and status absolutely was what drove Trump voters. See:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/04/18/1718155115
https://psmag.com/social-justice/mor...-trump-victory
Shall I go out and get a dozen or so cites supporting the argument that it was about economics? I agree there were a number of factors. So do you. But if you ask GGG or Adder, the first word out of their mouths is, "It's mainly racism, and barely, ever so slightly anything else!" And then they follow that up with this idiot argument that to challenge that view is white insecurity.

I'm white. I don't have any insecurity about discussing racism. It exists, it's huge, and Trump has enabled a significant increase in it. I can talk race with you all day long and it bothers me not in the least. I see racist whites all the time. When you say racism is prevalent, you're not revealing anything to me. I agree.

But when GGG and Adder say that's the overwhelming reason for Trump's election, I get off the train. And so, apparently, do you. There are endless reasons Trump got elected. The two biggest are racism and economic issues. To elevate either by multiples over the other, as Adder and GGG repeatedly do, paints a bullshit narrative.

GGG does it because he doesn't give a fuck about economic insecurity. He's a tinpot elitist who doesn't care about the desperate whites who voted for Trump for economic reasons. I can understand and agree with a lot of that view. But to state it's only racism, or overwhelmingly racism, is to lie. And I think he knows it.

Quote:
Obviously there were a number of factors. But, unless we're arguing over exactly how much of a factor racism, sexism, and xenophobia played, then we're back in realm of the article I posted last week about white fragility and the need to deny and get defensive whenever the topic is broached.
No we're not. That's a really cynical deus ex machina.

Quote:
I think you're not picking up what I'm putting down. I just want you to consider that people have actually thought about both sides to a position before taking a stance. And that when you think you're poking holes, you're often just stating the other side.
As I said, you've given enough argument here for me to take you at your word. I don't and won't agree as to GGG or Adder.

Quote:
"Poking holes" connotes the discovery of flaws. The act of discovering you disagree does not mean (i) you have discovered a flaw or (ii) you are revealing something that hasn't already been considered. When you get pushback, you throw the tribal accusation around, tell everyone they live in a bubble, and bring up your latest pretend cocktail party conversation. That's what's annoying.
I'm in company with GGG and Adder, who do the exact same thing. Perhaps I'm being reactive, and lazily painted everyone here as tribalist unfairly. I'd not considered that. In the future, I'll limit the accusation to those two.

But there are loads of flaws in points you make (as there are in loads of points everyone makes). I will continue to criticize those when I see them.

TM[/QUOTE]
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:47 PM   #2143
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
But if you ask GGG or Adder, the first word out of their mouths is, "It's mainly racism, and barely, ever so slightly anything else!" And then they follow that up with this idiot argument that to challenge that view is white insecurity.
You know you just called TM's argument idiotic, right?

Quote:
I don't have any insecurity about discussing racism.
Man are you completely lacking in self awareness.
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:47 PM   #2144
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Nobody does intentional obtuseness like you.
Any obtuseness on my part was purely unintentional, so why don't you explain it to me.

You like to see both sides, so much so that you find mirrors and reflections where there aren't any. I'm arguing to you that your mirrored view of right and left is wrong -- that what we have is more like a mainstream Earth being orbited by a breakaway, resentful, conservative Moon, a pale and less interesting satellite, much smaller than the sphere around which it revolves, but still exerting a real pull.
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:54 PM   #2145
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I started this by stating I agreed with Klein's sentiment, but that he has no right to tell Harris how to question Murray.

But sometimes I am taking a contrary position. When I do, I so state. Here, mine was a fundamental problem with what I saw (and see) as censorship of certain debates (unless conducted in the manner folks like Klein think they ought to be conducted).
Sometimes a legal education is a hindrance. Neither Klein nor Harris are lawyers, and their discussion didn't take place in any sort of legal proceeding. They were talking about ideas, not about government action. So when say that Klein "has not right to tell Harris how to question Murray," you sound like you are talking about what temperature to set your oven when you bicycle to the store. Of course Klein has a "right" to say whatever he wants, but he wasn't "telling" Harris how to do anything -- he was just offering view about an ongoing dialogue, a key part of which is which ideas are related to which other ideas, and which ideas are related and should be discussed with which other ideas. Harris chose to have a dialogue with Klein, and Klein chose to have a dialogue with Harris. No one is forcing anyone else to do anything. Nor does "censorship" enter into it. Klein can't censor Harris, Harris can't censor Klein, neither can censor Murray. If you tried to express a thought about Klein and Harris that didn't use this language, maybe you would make sense.

Oh wait, you started by saying that Harris made Klein look silly. Never mind.
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