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Old 12-18-2017, 11:41 AM   #3496
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by LessinSF View Post
And, as an aside, they are not inalienable. Governments change, law changes, and those "rights" become alienated
Nah uh. They come from G*d, not the government, stupid.
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Old 12-18-2017, 12:59 PM   #3497
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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But some, at least, civil rights can be intentionally and knowingly waived. For example, the right to an attorney or jury trial. Similaarly, one waives some Fiat Amendment protection by working for the government.
I think there is a principled difference between waiving a right and selling it. OTOH, you have a right to a jury trial, and you essentially sell it when you agree to contractual terms that specify arbitration. I think the key difference between that and where we started is that if you agree to arbitration, you don't undermine the right to a jury trial -- you just forego in the instance. But if employers can look for employees who agree to be harassed, it has an obvious, systematic effect of making things worse for everyone else (but for harassers).

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And, as an aside, they are not inalienable. Governments change, law changes, and those "rights" become alienated
If the drafters of the Declaration of Independence had really held those truths to be self-evident, they wouldn't have needed to point it out, no?
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Old 12-18-2017, 01:26 PM   #3498
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I think there is a principled difference between waiving a right and selling it. OTOH, you have a right to a jury trial, and you essentially sell it when you agree to contractual terms that specify arbitration. I think the key difference between that and where we started is that if you agree to arbitration, you don't undermine the right to a jury trial -- you just forego in the instance. But if employers can look for employees who agree to be harassed, it has an obvious, systematic effect of making things worse for everyone else (but for harassers).
Don't we have some criminal issues in here, too? It's one thing to waive a personal right, but we generally view criminal acts as societies to enforce, not the victim's. Les can't agree to let Ty shoot him in the knee for money. Les may want the money, and Ty might really enjoy kneecapping Les, but it's not something we as a society wish to permit.
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Old 12-18-2017, 01:35 PM   #3499
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Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.

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He may not be, but I will. Because it's not just two weeks.

These things tend to come up where people are fired for cause (doing something willfully wrong, or being seriously incompetent). The person's first concern is whether the employer will challenge an unemployment claim, as people fired for gross job failures or willful behavior can be barred from collecting unemployment benefits.

A good HR person almost always agrees not to challenge. But sometimes, they will (or management will make them do so). That's often the catalyst for the fired person to get a lawyer. Once that happens, the discussion shifts from unemployment to whatever facts the lawyer can suggest offer enough to file a claim.

The issue of whether there's really a claim, or that the termination was based on a pretext, which is almost never the case with people fired for cause, never arises. As you'd expect, the negotiation is about whether there's enough to cause embarrassment to the employer and possibly get an EEOC investigation initiated.
Another way of saying this is, whether there is enough to file a claim for discrimination.

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I initiated an EEOC claim way back when that ultimately resulted in a seven figure settlement. It was not a valid claim. There was no discrimination. But the defense would've had to prove a complex set of coincidences to defend the case. The reality was, yes, those coincidences had aligned, and had created what looked like ironclad discrimination. I didn't even spot the coincidences until after the filing.

But no one would ever believe the defense. So the employer wrote a check.
That really does sound like an extraordinary set of coincidences. I wonder if the employee thought they were all just coincidences also. I'd love to hear about how these coincidences aligned in such a way that they had an ironclad discrimination claim worth 7 figures. I'm all ears.

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Old 12-18-2017, 01:58 PM   #3500
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Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.

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That really does sound like an extraordinary set of coincidences. I wonder if the employee thought they were all just coincidences also. I'd love to hear about how these coincidences aligned in such a way that they had an ironclad discrimination claim worth 7 figures. I'm all ears.
This reminds me of that time that Sen. Corker didn't know anything about that provision stuck into the tax bill late at night in a backroom right before he switched his vote that would result in him saving several times over his senate paycheck. It was just a series of coincidences.
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Old 12-18-2017, 02:40 PM   #3501
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Re: He told me several times that he didn’t like my kind.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
This reminds me of that time that Sen. Corker didn't know anything about that provision stuck into the tax bill late at night in a backroom right before he switched his vote that would result in him saving several times over his senate paycheck. It was just a series of coincidences.
What is cause even anyway? Does it have anything to do with effect?
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:32 PM   #3502
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Kinda surprised to see people redistributing this article so favorably:

Quote:
The actor Minnie Driver has told the Guardian that men “simply cannot understand what abuse is like on a daily level” and should not therefore attempt to differentiate or explain sexual misconduct against women.

Driver was discussing comments by Matt Damon, whom she once dated and with whom she starred in the Oscar-winning 1997 film Good Will Hunting. In an interview with ABC News this week, Damon said alleged sexual misconduct by powerful men involved “a spectrum of behaviour”.

Damon said there was “a difference between patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation. Both of those behaviours need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they shouldn’t be conflated.”

He added that society was in a “watershed moment” and said it was “wonderful that women are feeling empowered to tell their stories and it’s totally necessary”. But he said: “We live in this culture of outrage and injury, that we’re going to have to correct enough to kind of go, ‘Wait a minute. None of us came here perfect.’”

In her first response to Damon, Driver wrote on Twitter: “God God, seriously?

“Gosh it’s so interesting (profoundly unsurprising) how men with all these opinions about women’s differentiation between sexual misconduct, assault and rape reveal themselves to be utterly tone deaf and as a result, systemically part of the problem.”

Driver’s response to Damon was shared widely on social media, alongside that of the actor Alyssa Milano, who said: “There are different stages of cancer. Some more treatable than others. But it’s still cancer.”

On Saturday, Driver told the Guardian: “I felt I desperately needed to say something. I’ve realised that most men, good men, the men that I love, there is a cut-off in their ability to understand. They simply cannot understand what abuse is like on a daily level.

“I honestly think that until we get on the same page, you can’t tell a woman about their abuse. A man cannot do that. No one can. It is so individual and so personal, it’s galling when a powerful man steps up and starts dictating the terms, whether he intends it or not.” ....
It sounds like Driver doesn't think there's anything Damon should say. Tone deaf? Systematically part of the problem? If men simply cannot understand what abuse is like on a daily level, what are they supposed to do? Is there anything the Drivers of the world could do to bridge the gap?
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:43 PM   #3503
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
It sounds like Driver doesn't think there's anything Damon should say. Tone deaf?
Nobody is conflating a pat on the butt with rape or child abuse, yet this is something people are very desperate to express the need not to conflate. Seriously, I'm seeing it everywhere. Why? Because they want to be able to say what is or isn't abusive, usually totally free from any context.

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Systematically part of the problem?
Yes, it's part of the pattern of dismissing certain conduct as no big deal.

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If men simply cannot understand what abuse is like on a daily level, what are they supposed to do?
I think she meant don't rather than can't, in which case she's absolutely right that it's very hard, for some reason, for most men to understand how the pat on the butt relates to the rest of that crap that women experience continuously. Looks, comments, judgments, suggestive comments, the potential for violence, etc. What men can do is listen to women and try to understand.

And try to be more of aware of it around them. When you start to see it, it's everywhere.

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Is there anything the Drivers of the world could do to bridge the gap?
Apparently she's not supposed to point out its existence.
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:55 PM   #3504
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Nobody is conflating a pat on the butt with rape or child abuse, yet this is something people are very desperate to express the need not to conflate. Seriously, I'm seeing it everywhere. Why? Because they want to be able to say what is or isn't abusive, usually totally free from any context.
Moore defenders were falling all over themselves to say, "Yeah, but what about Franken?" Isn't this evidence of the very conflation you say nobody is engaging in?
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:59 PM   #3505
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Nobody is conflating a pat on the butt with rape or child abuse, yet this is something people are very desperate to express the need not to conflate. Seriously, I'm seeing it everywhere. Why? Because they want to be able to say what is or isn't abusive, usually totally free from any context.
The only effective remedy right now for sexual harassment is for a person to love their job (or career, for people like Louis C.K. and Garrison Keillor). Here's what Damon said:

Quote:
I think we’re in this watershed moment. I think it’s great. I think it’s wonderful that women are feeling empowered to tell their stories, and it’s totally necessary … I do believe that there’s a spectrum of behavior, right? And we’re going to have to figure — you know, there’s a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation, right? Both of those behaviors need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they shouldn’t be conflated, right? You know, we see somebody like Al Franken, right? — I personally would have preferred if they had an Ethics Committee investigation, you know what I mean? It’s like at what point — you know, we’re so energized to kind of get retribution, I think.
I take his point to be that those two (and Harvey Weinstein and Al Franken and Matt Later) engaged in different sorts of behavior and yet the consequences in each case are the same. I think that's a bad thing, and one thing it reflects (among others) is that the judicial system has pretty much failed to address this conduct, such the we resort to alternative private punishment to punish people who do bad things. It would be better if there were other societal sanctions to apply. In addition, not instead.

Now, where he goes with that is to suggest that he found Louis C.K.'s apology (or "apology") to a sort of positive sign that he was taking responsibility, which I don't buy at all. So I don't mean to defend everything Damon said.

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Yes, it's part of the pattern of dismissing certain conduct as no big deal.
I don't actually believe he did that, but maybe I missed it and you can explain.

Quote:
I think she meant don't rather than can't, in which case she's absolutely right that it's very hard, for some reason, for most men to understand how the pat on the butt relates to the rest of that crap that women experience continuously. Looks, comments, judgments, suggestive comments, the potential for violence, etc. What men can do is listen to women and try to understand.
What she said is, "They [most men] simply cannot understand what abuse is like on a daily level." If so, then listening to women and trying to understand is pretty futile. I take it that you agree with me about what she said, which is why you are suggesting she didn't mean it.

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Apparently she's not supposed to point out its existence.
"Apparently?" According to whom? Do you think that's what I just said? For an advocate of listening and understanding, you're not setting a very good example.
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Old 12-18-2017, 05:50 PM   #3506
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Kinda surprised to see people redistributing this article so favorably:



It sounds like Driver doesn't think there's anything Damon should say. Tone deaf? Systematically part of the problem? If men simply cannot understand what abuse is like on a daily level, what are they supposed to do? Is there anything the Drivers of the world could do to bridge the gap?
One thing that article misses is the total tone-deafness of the Damon interview. He talks about "no body knew" on Weinstein - ah, yeah, right bub. Sorry, lots of people knew. Lots of women in particular, but other folks as well. He talks about the pictures of Franken being a "bad joke". He seems to excuse almost everyone he mentions. He certainly excuses himself for not recognizing Weinstein for what he was.

Minnie Driver is saying, you don't get to identify and excuse the distinctions, bro, you need to listen to us on what they are, and not just excuse what you and your bros have done. Because all of it is pretty damn bad, and you are minimizing 90% of it.

I suspect all Damon needed to do to recognize what Weinstein was was to listen to his girlfriend, Minnie Driver, a little more closely.
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Old 12-18-2017, 05:52 PM   #3507
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower View Post
Moore defenders were falling all over themselves to say, "Yeah, but what about Franken?" Isn't this evidence of the very conflation you say nobody is engaging in?
This is indeed the conflation going on.

What we need to do is realize that some of these things are things people ought to lose their job or their career over. Some are much worse, and ought to lead to prison time. For some, I'd like to see castration in the public square.

The men losing jobs are getting the light punishment here, not the serious punishment.

That having been said, I think the most profound think Driver said was that this really is the time for men to listen rather than speak, and I should stop now.
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Old 12-18-2017, 06:10 PM   #3508
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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One thing that article misses is the total tone-deafness of the Damon interview. He talks about "no body knew" on Weinstein - ah, yeah, right bub. Sorry, lots of people knew. Lots of women in particular, but other folks as well. He talks about the pictures of Franken being a "bad joke". He seems to excuse almost everyone he mentions. He certainly excuses himself for not recognizing Weinstein for what he was.

Minnie Driver is saying, you don't get to identify and excuse the distinctions, bro, you need to listen to us on what they are, and not just excuse what you and your bros have done. Because all of it is pretty damn bad, and you are minimizing 90% of it.

I suspect all Damon needed to do to recognize what Weinstein was was to listen to his girlfriend, Minnie Driver, a little more closely.
I didn't watch it. On the basis of the partial transcript I linked, I can see what you mean. He says some things I flat out disagree with, and doesn't say much that seems particularly insightful. I agree that with him that what Franken did was, more or less, a bad attempt at a joke. I don't believe it's accurate to say that Damon was "just excusing what you and your bros have done," based on what I read.

Here's the thing: I don't think Damon said anything much that's interesting. I also don't agree with much of what Driver said. I didn't retweet (or the functional equivalent) either. I don't want to have to agree with one or the other. It seems to me that neither has much to say that is worth repeating, and I don't think what either said would get any attention at all if they weren't celebrities with a history. Which is why I said that I didn't get retweeting of her.
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Old 12-18-2017, 06:15 PM   #3509
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I didn't watch it. On the basis of the partial transcript I linked, I can see what you mean. He says some things I flat out disagree with, and doesn't say much that seems particularly insightful. I agree that with him that what Franken did was, more or less, a bad attempt at a joke. I don't believe it's accurate to say that Damon was "just excusing what you and your bros have done," based on what I read.

Here's the thing: I don't think Damon said anything much that's interesting. I also don't agree with much of what Driver said. I didn't retweet (or the functional equivalent) either. I don't want to have to agree with one or the other. It seems to me that neither has much to say that is worth repeating, and I don't think what either said would get any attention at all if they weren't celebrities with a history. Which is why I said that I didn't get retweeting of her.
1. Retweets are not endorsements

2. I agree. Damon, like most of us men, is boring on this.

3. I disagree. Driver is worth listening to. Even if you disagree with her.
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Old 12-18-2017, 06:18 PM   #3510
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Driver is worth listening to. Even if you disagree with her.
Referring back to what I was responding to in my original post on this, how so?
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