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Old 01-31-2018, 07:02 PM   #4246
LessinSF
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

My favorite bad argument corollary to identity politics is when someone prefaces their argument with "As a _______," as in "As a mother, I think Nassar should have received the death penalty."

This use of one's identity to insulate their argument from scrutiny, and de-legitimize the arguments of anyone who is not whatever the speaker is maddens me. It actually makes me discount their argument.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:09 PM   #4247
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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My favorite bad argument corollary to identity politics is when someone prefaces their argument with "As a _______," as in "As a mother, I think Nassar should have received the death penalty."

This use of one's identity to insulate their argument from scrutiny, and de-legitimize the arguments of anyone who is not whatever the speaker is maddens me. It actually makes me discount their argument.
As someone who had a quasi-judicial job, I have to say I did follow that line of reasoning. But what is your status where someone else gives a shit what you find the opposite of persuasive?
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:25 PM   #4248
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Re: Immigration

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Under either party, the money is funneling upwards. If you don’t see that both parties do little to effect real change, and only fiddle around the edges to the extent their corporate owners allow them to, whatever.
False. Try again.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:53 PM   #4249
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Re: Immigration

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False. Try again.
True. You're applying bias and a limited lens.
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Old 01-31-2018, 07:59 PM   #4250
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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As someone who had a quasi-judicial job, I have to say I did follow that line of reasoning. But what is your status where someone else gives a shit what you find the opposite of persuasive?
I watched a fellow attack Hitchens at a speech once, arguing Hitchens couldn't write about war or conflict because he'd never been in the military.

Hitchens thought for a moment, goading the audience into assuming he'd offer some complex and polite explanation, then stated: "That's too fucking stupid. I'm not responding to that." (Conservative paraphrase.)

Laughter followed, the guy got up in a huff and left. I think he might've attacked Hitchens, except that Hitchens was already bald and physically diminished from chemo at that point.
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Old 01-31-2018, 08:10 PM   #4251
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I watched a fellow attack Hitchens at a speech once, arguing Hitchens couldn't write about war or conflict because he'd never been in the military.

Hitchens thought for a moment, goading the audience into assuming he'd offer some complex and polite explanation, then stated: "That's too fucking stupid. I'm not responding to that." (Conservative paraphrase.)

Laughter followed, the guy got up in a huff and left. I think he might've attacked Hitchens, except that Hitchens was already bald and physically diminished from chemo at that point.
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Old 01-31-2018, 11:24 PM   #4252
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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You were a traffic court bailiff? We’re in the same union!
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Old 01-31-2018, 11:50 PM   #4253
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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When I was a civil servant, I was kind of bored, and in law school. So I started doing grievances for our employee union.

The thing is, the gov "protections" aren't that big a deal. It seemed the supervisors only had to follow procedure and they could unfairly fuck people. The employees who were getting fucked we typically couldn't help, because the supervisor knew he was doing something wrong, so em was careful. Who could we help? The employee that should be getting fired, because their supervisor would often act hastily. That is, I don't think it is hard to fire gov employee now.

That said, I also knew NO ONE who was their because the job had firing security. Maybe some people, especially the clerical group, were there because layoffs were less likely. People in legal jobs might have been there for experience, because it does come quicker. And the bennies were great. I had 4 weeks from the start. And the thing is, I could use it. I remember big law telling me I got 4 weeks! Might as well have been 20, you can't use it all, and still keep your job.

But I never ever heard anyone there for "hard to get fired" rules.
So you're saying there won't be any recruiting issues once "the boss fired me on a whim" gets out? Nope.

Yeah, it's an intangible, hard to quantify thing, but the impression that the boss can fuck you (really, because you're not in the same party but using some other pretext) will actually hurt talent acquisition.

And why? So the boss can fuck you a bit easier?

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Old 01-31-2018, 11:56 PM   #4254
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Sebby. You are smarter than this.
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Old 01-31-2018, 11:58 PM   #4255
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Re: Immigration

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True. You're applying bias and a limited lens.
No, I'm talking about what the government does. You are talking about what the rest of the economy does. "The money is funneling upwards" is a stupid thing to say. Money doesn't funnel itself. As you have pointed out many times -- and no one here disagrees -- the economy itself seems to be working lately in a way that advantages the already well-off, and disadvantages the not-so-well-off. I get it. We all get it. You think you're Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with great news on big tablets of stone, but you're like the guy who tweeted yesterday that Barney is a Tantric sex therapist now. We got it already.

My point, which is so obviously correct that you can't really disagree with it, is that the Democrats used their political power when they controlled Congress under Obama to change the law in ways that helped the poor at the expense of the rich, and the GOP is now doing the opposite. You know this is true. You're just so committed to presenting as the independent thinker that you feel compelled to offer a contrarian take. So daring!
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:26 AM   #4256
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by LessinSF View Post
My favorite bad argument corollary to identity politics is when someone prefaces their argument with "As a _______," as in "As a mother, I think Nassar should have received the death penalty."

This use of one's identity to insulate their argument from scrutiny, and de-legitimize the arguments of anyone who is not whatever the speaker is maddens me. It actually makes me discount their argument.
It's an old favorite of mine, too.

But there is a use for the phrase. When I preface a healthcare related statement with the phrase "As a cancer survivor", I'm highlighting why what follows important. All of you could be relying some day on someone sticking paddles on your heart to make it another day, you're all potential future cancer survivors, so you ought to stay awake for that discussion.

More and more these days, though, my one of choice is "As a rational human being..." It does set you apart from an awful lot of people.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:28 AM   #4257
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Re: Immigration

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
No, I'm talking about what the government does. You are talking about what the rest of the economy does. "The money is funneling upwards" is a stupid thing to say. Money doesn't funnel itself. As you have pointed out many times -- and no one here disagrees -- the economy itself seems to be working lately in a way that advantages the already well-off, and disadvantages the not-so-well-off. I get it. We all get it. You think you're Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with great news on big tablets of stone, but you're like the guy who tweeted yesterday that Barney is a Tantric sex therapist now. We got it already.

My point, which is so obviously correct that you can't really disagree with it, is that the Democrats used their political power when they controlled Congress under Obama to change the law in ways that helped the poor at the expense of the rich, and the GOP is now doing the opposite. You know this is true. You're just so committed to presenting as the independent thinker that you feel compelled to offer a contrarian take. So daring!
The biggest reason money is getting concentrated is that unions have been busted. And there are lots of urban professionals who just don't give a shit, whether they are blue, red, purple or green.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:28 AM   #4258
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I watched a fellow attack Hitchens at a speech once, arguing Hitchens couldn't write about war or conflict because he'd never been in the military.

Hitchens thought for a moment, goading the audience into assuming he'd offer some complex and polite explanation, then stated: "That's too fucking stupid. I'm not responding to that." (Conservative paraphrase.)

Laughter followed, the guy got up in a huff and left. I think he might've attacked Hitchens, except that Hitchens was already bald and physically diminished from chemo at that point.
Great story! I feel like there are some real valuable lessons in there about how I should be leading my life, but I fear I am too emotionally limited to be able to transcend biased thought in the way that you have. So I am doomed to sit here in my silo, like so much grain.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:33 AM   #4259
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Great story! I feel like there are some real valuable lessons in there about how I should be leading my life, but I fear I am too emotionally limited to be able to transcend biased thought in the way that you have. So I am doomed to sit here in my silo, like so much grain.
Break out! Get some Sebby stories of your own!

If you don't travel in Sebby's refined circles, make 'em up. Use this template:

(1) Name drop some asshole, make sure you use the first person to establish a relationship with them.
(2) Have them do something obnoxious
(3) Have nameless people react to it. They can laugh, gasp, choke, or almost have almost any reaction.
(3) Praise the ass for it.

Here's an example:

I remember that time Tomi Lahren went off on some Kennedy Kid. Called him a limp dick. Everyone laughed. Good stuff.
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:35 AM   #4260
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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I’m describing what I saw. I expected some babbling crap. I saw plagiarism of Reagan.

You underestimate the selling power of positivity. He pitched a generally positive vision last night, and just like Reagan, he never once explained how much added debt it would involve.

That speech was only trash to your fellow travelers. To the business community, particularly small business, Trump is a useful idiot bearing tax cuts. To Wall Street, a co-opted tool.

The Kochs are about to dump half a billion into keeping the houses red. And the left’s marketers are betting it all on “resistance” and #metoo. You might be right. Incumbents always lose in midterms. But I’m sensing this might be closer than you like.

Oh, I know, how dare I. Heresy! Right. Well, enjoy your silo.
By the way, have I mentioned that I am enjoying the silo metaphor. It has a resonance for us Midwestern folks that "echo chamber" never did. Is an echo chamber even a real thing? Is that something you all have out on the East Coast? Like, when you are exhausted from constantly having to listen with open minds to divergent viewpoints and from having to apply critical thinking not just to others' beliefs but your own as well, you treat yourself to a few hours in the echo chamber?
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