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Old 07-17-2018, 10:36 AM   #1726
Adder
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The fear that Trump is going to destroy the system and become a de facto autocrat in league with Putin or Erdogan is frivolous.
We shall see, but the path lies in the reaction Mueller, and thus far the GOP has been willing to dismiss every indictment and call for an end to the investigation.

On that front, the independent national security journalist, Marcy Wheeler, was on the most recent Pod Save America saying that the Trump Tower meeting was real (i.e., Russians asked for a quid pro quo in the meeting) and that there's something that she brought to the FBI that's yet to be made public. Given her track record of criticism of U.S. intelligence operations, her going to the FBI seems like a big deal. She also implied that she had a source that wasn't connected to the GOP or the administration who nonetheless knew what was going on inside the White House.

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And judging from GOP disgust at yesterday's press conference, they will be utilized in a bipartisan manner.
I do not share your optimism on that front.

Last edited by Adder; 07-17-2018 at 01:07 PM..
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:11 AM   #1727
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower View Post
I think your post underscores what others on this board have previously pointed out, which is that the most significant political problem facing this country right now is liberal whining about Trump.
“This media company’s deceptive and fraudulent behavior is exactly why President Donald Trump was elected.”

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...ya3zuId1miJqM/

TM
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:24 AM   #1728
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
What's your conception of conservatism? I think liberals have core beliefs, but I think conservatives are reacting to liberals, looking for some impossible reversion to an impossible past rather than having any particular outcomes in mind. I'm not saying ideals don't exist, but that they're effect, not cause. I will admit that in this view, I am highly influenced by Corey Robin, about whom see this. Why does it matter? I think it's mistake to think you can bargain with conservatives by identifying policy goals and negotiating compromises with them. Because they tend to be motivated more by sticking it to libs than by any particular outcome, that won't work. Also: If conservatives are motivated by principles, who are the thinkers defining those principles? It's not like the conservative movement is following any particular thought leader.
You keep stating your thesis as if it is settled fact. I know you think conservatism is purely reactionary. But the word, "conserve," surely gives us a clue as to what conservatism stands for--opposition to change. I think most people understand conservatives stand for small government, low taxes, fiscal responsibility,* business first/free enterprise, and all of the fucked up social conservative viewpoints.

It's probably that last one that has you the most hung up. If you are against gay marriage, white people not running everything, women working, etc., everything you do to fight change looks reactionary. But that doesn't mean you don't hold the core belief that things should not change.

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If you spend a lot of time on Twitter or Facebook, you will notice that conservatives spend a lot more time thinking about what will piss off liberals than liberals do about what will piss off conservatives.
I think you're conflating everyone who sits on the right with conservatives. I'm not sure why, unless you're saying that conservatives can no longer claim conservatism because they have sold out so many of their principles that the word might as well not exist. But that is (repeatedly) not what you're saying.

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YMMV. If anyone has a different view of what conservatism is, I'd like to hear it. I will note, though, that we keep hearing how liberals are responsible for Trump voters because of some episode of lefty/cosmopolitan/elitist disrespect for them. No one ever, ever, ever suggests that lefties change their vote because of what conservatives say or do.
Again, you are conflating conservatism with everyone on the right.

In any case, I'm not sure why I'm arguing this. I think conservatives have always been trash because of their willingness to side with the absolute worst people in society to get what they want.

TM

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Old 07-17-2018, 11:27 AM   #1729
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
...thus far the GOP has been willing to dismiss every indictment and call for an end to the investigation.
I think there are not an insignificant number of Republicans who are tied to Russian money, whether it be through the NRA or otherwise, and they want the whole thing shut down for those reasons.

TM

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Old 07-17-2018, 11:50 AM   #1730
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I think there are not an insignificant number of Republicans who are tied to Russian money, whether it be through the NRA or otherwise, and they want the whole thing shut down for those reasons.

TM
It seems more like that's the case every day. And even if they weren't direct recipients of money, it sounds like they new some of their compatriots were.

Of course, McConnell also suppressed the Russia stuff during the election for political gain, so that's kinda of a good reason to want to keep it suppressed too.
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:54 AM   #1731
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
And judging from GOP disgust at yesterday's press conference, they will be utilized in a bipartisan manner.
Did I miss something?

Other than a few tweets from the usual malcontents, and a few journalists who got a bit huffy for a few hours on a summer afternoon that will soon be forgotten, the GOP has done what exactly?
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:24 PM   #1732
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Did I miss something?

Other than a few tweets from the usual malcontents, and a few journalists who got a bit huffy for a few hours on a summer afternoon that will soon be forgotten, the GOP has done what exactly?
I would not call "Fox & Friends" the "usual malcontents." https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment...i-13081253.php
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:06 PM   #1733
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I think what you’re citing is a bonus to conservatives. They accrue glee from the frustration and offense of the left. But it’s only incidental to their goal of reverting to a system where the control of affluent and middle class whites was the rule.
I think it's underlying cause rather than incidental to the goals you describe, and this is why: You don't see conservatives willing to make incremental deals to further policy ends. Republicans will, but it's basically anathema to conservatives. Republicans (Lugar, Bennett) who were willing to compromise with Democrats to get things done got primaried.

But I basically agree with you (as does Robin) that conservatives prefer a world of (traditional) hierarchy instead of one of equality.
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:35 PM   #1734
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Did I miss something?

Other than a few tweets from the usual malcontents, and a few journalists who got a bit huffy for a few hours on a summer afternoon that will soon be forgotten, the GOP has done what exactly?
Plus, at least one Irish bookie disagrees - http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know...summit?ref=yfp
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:51 PM   #1735
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by LessinSF View Post
I would not call "Fox & Friends" the "usual malcontents." https://www.sfgate.com/entertainment...i-13081253.php
I was thinking of them more as "journalists who got a bit huffy for a few hours" but I'll be the first to concede that it is generous to call them "journalists", but, then, I've always had a little crush on Abby Huntsman's sister so I tend to give her a break.
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Old 07-17-2018, 01:53 PM   #1736
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by LessinSF View Post
Plus, at least one Irish bookie disagrees - http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know...summit?ref=yfp
I don't see the outside date on when impeachment would happen. I'll happily take the "no way" side of the bet if it times out at years' end, but if it runs through the end of the term, those odds sound about right.
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Old 07-17-2018, 02:47 PM   #1737
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
“This media company’s deceptive and fraudulent behavior is exactly why President Donald Trump was elected.”

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regi...ya3zuId1miJqM/

TM
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Old 07-17-2018, 03:07 PM   #1738
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You keep stating your thesis as if it is settled fact. I know you think conservatism is purely reactionary. But the word, "conserve," surely gives us a clue as to what conservatism stands for--opposition to change. I think most people understand conservatives stand for small government, low taxes, fiscal responsibility,* business first/free enterprise, and all of the fucked up social conservative viewpoints.

It's probably that last one that has you the most hung up. If you are against gay marriage, white people not running everything, women working, etc., everything you do to fight change looks reactionary. But that doesn't mean you don't hold the core belief that things should not change.
I'm not hung up on any of those. Most conservatives will say they support those things. (Although they aren't for small government when you talk about military spending, law enforcement, or Social Security for the elderly -- "small government" is a euphemism for views about what people want the government to do, just as "law and order" is a euphemism that has more to do with order than following the law. And conservatives don't care about fiscal responsibility, as you point out -- that is a euphemism for opposition to government spending when Democrats are in charge. The tax bill shows this.)

My point is that conservatism is not defined by a particular constellation of policy preferences. Conservatives express policy preferences, but there is no set of policy preference or principles that define the movement.

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I think you're conflating everyone who sits on the right with conservatives.
I'm not, not at all. There are Republicans who are not particularly conservative, though that's rarer. There are libertarians, although very, very few of them. There are conservative Catholics (I'm using the first word as an adjective), who have a core set of views and principles defined by their religion.

But, most of the right now are Trump conservatives. They are animated at the core not by any particular policy position, but by opposition to the mainstream left, and he is leading that opposition.

There are absolutely people on the right who aren't like this. Just not enough of them to elect anyone to anything. Senators like McCain and Flake and Corker who oppose Trump aren't running for re-election. Also, because they at heart conservatives, they can't bring themselves to actually use their Senate seats to block Trump, probably because it would mean voting with Democrats. (McCain is a partial exception to this.)

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In any case, I'm not sure why I'm arguing this. I think conservatives have always been trash because of their willingness to side with the absolute worst people in society to get what they want.
Not sure where we disagree. I think there are real differences between right and left, and people make the mistake of thinking they are the same but opposites. Some of this is projection -- e.g., the left likes to think about politics as a battle of policy ideas, but that's not the core of it for the right.
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Old 07-17-2018, 05:36 PM   #1739
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Thread.
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