Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

That's what he was saying about it being a Pay to Play sport in this country, at $2500 a kid a year. I totally agree with you on this, and I think it's something that we need to look at from a federation level. Other countries have academies where they find talent and develop the hell out of it. Whatever Barcelona invested in Messi when he joined their academy at 12 or 13, they got back in spades.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse.

German national team members Emre Can, Shkrodran Mustafi, Jerome Boateng, Amin Yones and Leroy Sane might disagree.

eta: I want to have some of whatever Sunil Gulati is smoking.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

I'm old enough to remember when athletic preferences played a role in integrated schools kept white by alumni preferences.

Now, so many athletic preferences are effectively for sale (got an ok rich basketball player, not good enough for the top schools either athletically or academically? - move them over to volleyball, crew, fencing, soccer....).

[soup sandwich]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

All true. The coaches figured out how to monetize it and the parents are willing to pay. When you factor in gas, hotels, and meals out, I probably spend about $15k a year for my three girls to play. There is definitely a training arms race that creates peer-pressure. "You're not doing private training/futsal academy/ODP/Thanksgiving tournament/summer camps? You'll be left behind."

My son dabbles in tackle football, flag football, basketball, baseball and swimming. Together all of these activities are less than $2k. But of course you have to put up with parent coaches, which is a whole other issue.

And not playing for the high school sucks. My oldest got to play one year of high school before the club's "no high school sports" policy kicked in this year. High school sports are fun.

So why spend all that money? I don't know what to say other than I enjoy it. I enjoy watching them play at a high level. I enjoy the long car rides and the conversations I have with them. That being said, I sometimes dream of an alternative reality wherein we sunk all that money into a beach house and we became one of those families that just went to the beach each weekend instead of driving all over for sports.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you look at the US roster last night, there's this missing generation of players who should be in the prime of their careers. Yedlin is 24, and there are some younger players. There are a whole bunch who are past 30. Between them, you only had Altidore and Nagbe (27), Villafana (28) and Gonzalez (29).

More here.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

That's what he was saying about it being a Pay to Play sport in this country, at $2500 a kid a year. I totally agree with you on this, and I think it's something that we need to look at from a federation level. Other countries have academies where they find talent and develop the hell out of it. Whatever Barcelona invested in Messi when he joined their academy at 12 or 13, they got back in spades.

European sports is a much different animal. We had a 6' 7" Italian exchange student a few years back. At 12 he was under a contract. At 15 his team sold his contract to another team. Investment like you are talking about requires a contractual tie. Hell, in basketball here, no one commits. Everyone wants to be able to jump ship if the coach decides someone other than my kid gets most shots.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

As you all know, I am not a soccer aficionado, although I have been watching a lot more soccer since my daughter took up the sport quite a few years ago now. I think I have a better appreciation for the game (the women's game is more respectable, btw, because they don't spend all their time fucking flopping like beached fish).

I watch Taylor Twellman criticize the US soccer machine. I think he's an excellent analyst and his points are well taken. But I will tell you, from my perspective, what the real problem is. (And to be fair, nothing he said and nothing I will say will be an excuse or even an explanation for why the USMNT lost to fucking Trinidad and Tobago. Jesus.)

Soccer, like many sports now, in this country is not for poor kids. You might not think that this makes any sense at all since it certainly is for everyone else, the world over. But here, what I am going to call The Great De Facto Segregation, which used to apply to mostly schools and neighborhoods, is destroying youth sports.

If your kid wants to play soccer competitively, she needs to be on a club team early on, before there is an option to play for a school, which costs money. If they show any talent and want to continue, they need to play travel, which costs money. Dues, uniforms, fees, gas money, hotels, gifts for coaches, meals away from home, team parties, skill-position extra coaching, etc. It's not cheap. And it's a year-round slog.

You may think, "Well, if they're not on a travel team, they can just play for their schools." Nope. If you want to play for a good school team (public or private--and we're obviously not talking about private schools are we?), you better have been playing travel for years before you try out or you won't get a spot. Worse yet, travel players with ambitions of a scholarship (read: 80% of players) often don't even play for their schools because all of the good coaches are connected to travel teams and playing for your school is often looked at very negatively and may be considered a step backwards. And that's if you even have the time. The better travel programs require you to choose one sport and will not tolerate you missing their practices or games when there is a conflict. So, even if you're pretty good without going to travel, you're playing with and against unskilled players and being instructed by shitty coaches.

Finally, if you're still pretty good and want to try to play at the next level, college coaches won't even see you play to recruit you. They're all at the college showcase tournaments that the travel juggernaut sets up. The relationships between travel coaches and schools run deep. And travel teams have all the talent and have been highly coached since they were little kids.

So, our best black and Latino kids don't even try to play soccer. Hell, the same thing is going on in basketball, except the love of basketball in poor communities is so strong that parents are killing themselves to pay for their kids to get on travel basketball teams. But if US soccer can't draw black and Latino athletes to soccer at a young age, they're never going to be able to compete, no matter how many billions we spend on soccer as a country. And I say this with the understanding that Germany, for example, is lilly white and is a powerhouse. That's not us.

TM

I'm not sure it's just about money. I'd like to know where the parents engaged in this arms race find the time for it.

There are all of these helicopter sorts who appear to have nothing to do but take the kids to practice, to special coaching, and to watch and critique every game. And volunteer coach!

What do these people do for a living? Some are well off sorts with time to burn. But most are middle class to affluent sorts who seem to have magically found 30 hours in a day.

Some of this is jealousy at the fact I don't have the time, nor does my spouse. But some of it is also annoyance. Many of these people are making poor choices. Their kids are not good enough to get scholarships, they have perhaps too many kids, and their time might be better spent in a commercial/working endeavors which would better equip them to pay for the kids' college. I fear a lot of them will spend all these years collecting trophies that'll wind up in a dusty garage, while their kids later head off to college to collect debt, which will preclude them from participating positively in the economy.

I grasp the attraction of one's kid excelling in a sport, and that team participation schools one for later group participation in the workplace. But many of these parents go way too far, and they create an unhealthy arms race. And I think a lot of these parents need to understand, Reliving your youth through Junior is not reliving your youth. The school sports star phase of your ride through the mortal coil is Over. Assume the appropriate spectator position.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

About the shift among gun owners away from hunting.

I blame marketing for this. Clearly, for some people, guns are collectibles. How do manufacturers keep people buying more of something? Keep making unique versions of it.

If you're a billionaire car collector, when someone else has a Veyron, your Ferrari won't do. And when that Veyron owner hears McLaren is building something that goes 10 mph faster than a Veyron (and will suck your dick and make you four kinds of espresso using Bluetooth commands), he's got to have it.

Aren't gun nuts just collectors of a really, really unhealthy product?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Yeah, like you've never fertilized a plant before....

If from a standing position, with ten seconds on the clock, you can place a money shot in a potted plant on the floor, bag law and get thee to the San Fernando Valley!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm not sure it's just about money. I'd like to know where the parents engaged in this arms race find the time for it.

There are all of these helicopter sorts who appear to have nothing to do but take the kids to practice, to special coaching, and to watch and critique every game. And volunteer coach!

What do these people do for a living? Some are well off sorts with time to burn. But most are middle class to affluent sorts who seem to have magically found 30 hours in a day.

Some of this is jealousy at the fact I don't have the time, nor does my spouse. But some of it is also annoyance. Many of these people are making poor choices. Their kids are not good enough to get scholarships, they have perhaps too many kids, and their time might be better spent in a commercial/working endeavors which would better equip them to pay for the kids' college. I fear a lot of them will spend all these years collecting trophies that'll wind up in a dusty garage, while their kids later head off to college to collect debt, which will preclude them from participating positively in the economy.

I grasp the attraction of one's kid excelling in a sport, and that team participation schools one for later group participation in the workplace. But many of these parents go way too far, and they create an unhealthy arms race. And I think a lot of these parents need to understand, Reliving your youth through Junior is not reliving your youth. The school sports star phase of your ride through the mortal coil is Over. Assume the appropriate spectator position.

I have three kids playing comp soccer, in youth club of a MLS team fwiw. I manage two of the teams, and have my coaching license and sometimes fill in when a coach can't be there for a game. Across their teams, there are a small number of parents who fit the profile you describe above -- they are very much the exception rather than the rule. For most of the families, the kids play comp soccer in a structured club because it is hard to find things for them to do that aren't structured, and hard to find sports that they can start fresh. If you want to play soccer, it becomes a year-round thing, or you're out. The club is pretty focused on identifying new talents and getting them to its academy team, and the kids at our level (below that) are pretty clearly not going to be on the academy team. The money we spend keeps the program working. If every club in the country worked as hard as ours does to spot the talent out there, US Soccer would be in great shape.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

That's what he was saying about it being a Pay to Play sport in this country, at $2500 a kid a year. I totally agree with you on this, and I think it's something that we need to look at from a federation level. Other countries have academies where they find talent and develop the hell out of it. Whatever Barcelona invested in Messi when he joined their academy at 12 or 13, they got back in spades.

I hear you. But, fuck. That's just the most selfish (from a national team perspective) approach to growing the game, no? Cherry pick talented kids and put them in an academy so we can have a great team? That leaves poor kids that aren't completely exceptional out in the cold still. These travel teams should be forced to provide a certain number of spots to kids who can't afford to pay. They should allow public schools to use their facilities. Providing coaching at public schools should be part of travel coaches' jobs. We should be investing in building smaller soccer fields in cities and reaching out to kids to train them and give them field time.

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I hear you. But, fuck. That's just the most selfish (from a national team perspective) approach to growing the game, no? Cherry pick talented kids and put them in an academy so we can have a great team? That leaves poor kids that aren't completely exceptional out in the cold still. These travel teams should be forced to provide a certain number of spots to kids who can't afford to pay. They should allow public schools to use their facilities. Providing coaching at public schools should be part of travel coaches' jobs. We should be investing in building smaller soccer fields in cities and reaching out to kids to train them and give them field time.

TM

The Messi example is a little complicated from a club vs. country perspective. The investment Barcelona made in him has paid off ridiculous dividends, but his move to Spain at a young age enraged many in Argentina, and there are many that argue that the rift between Messi and Argentina soccer has been a reason that he has dramatically underperformed on the national stage (last night excepted) while at the same time being arguably the best player in the world for Barcelona.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I hear you. But, fuck. That's just the most selfish (from a national team perspective) approach to growing the game, no? Cherry pick talented kids and put them in an academy so we can have a great team? That leaves poor kids that aren't completely exceptional out in the cold still. These travel teams should be forced to provide a certain number of spots to kids who can't afford to pay. They should allow public schools to use their facilities. Providing coaching at public schools should be part of travel coaches' jobs. We should be investing in building smaller soccer fields in cities and reaching out to kids to train them and give them field time.

TM

I think the issue is that the game is too expensive for younger kids, so unless they are less likely to have the opportunity to get spotted and pulled into the pipeline. For my teams, the biggest expense is fields, for which we pay the local school systems. The second biggest expense is coaching. Nothing else comes close. If there were more fields, and if the local governments (school districts) weren't using the rental fees from them to balance otherwise upside-down budgets, it would be much cheaper.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by soup sandwich

So why spend all that money? I don't know what to say other than I enjoy it. I enjoy watching them play at a high level. I enjoy the long car rides and the conversations I have with them. That being said, I sometimes dream of an alternative reality wherein we sunk all that money into a beach house and we became one of those families that just went to the beach each weekend instead of driving all over for sports.

My daughter plays travel soccer and basketball. But she also plays high school soccer and basketball. Both of her (public) high school teams are absolutely terrible. We have 3 travel players on the HS soccer team. They are so fucking advanced that playing with girls who are literally just learning the game is frustrating. And the powerhouse schools they play are the Catholic schools who have a dozen travel players. It's sickening.

My daughter absolutely loves playing for her school even though they frequently get murdered. There is school spirit, it helps with the social life obviously, and since she's so highly skilled (and I'm not bragging at all--that's just how it is when you've played travel for 10 years) she was one of the leaders on both teams as a freshman last year. All of that is great for her. We've told both travel teams who try to keep their players from playing other sports and playing for their schools to fuck off. She's been lucky that it hasn't affected her participation on either team. But that is not the norm and I think it's bullshit.

And what's crazy is that parents buy in to this one sport bullshit that these travel teams sell. If you ask college coaches what they're looking for, they always say they want a kid who has grown up playing multiple sports. They think differently, have much better footwork, understand how to move, etc. And yet parents force their kids into playing just one sport the whole year.

Everything sucks.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

My daughter plays travel soccer and basketball. But she also plays high school soccer and basketball. Both of her (public) high school teams are absolutely terrible. We have 3 travel players on the HS soccer team. They are so fucking advanced that playing with girls who are literally just learning the game is frustrating. And the powerhouse schools they play are the Catholic schools who have a dozen travel players. It's sickening.

My daughter absolutely loves playing for her school even though they frequently get murdered. There is school spirit, it helps with the social life obviously, and since she's so highly skilled (and I'm not bragging at all--that's just how it is when you've played travel for 10 years) she was one of the leaders on both teams as a freshman last year. All of that is great for her. We've told both travel teams who try to keep their players from playing other sports and playing for their schools to fuck off. She's been lucky that it hasn't affected her participation on either team. But that is not the norm and I think it's bullshit.

And what's crazy is that parents buy in to this one sport bullshit that these travel teams sell. If you ask college coaches what they're looking for, they always say they want a kid who has grown up playing multiple sports. They think differently, have much better footwork, understand how to move, etc. And yet parents force their kids into playing just one sport the whole year.

Everything sucks.

TM

The best players in our area don't play in high school at all, because their clubs want them to play through the winter (soccer is a winter sport here). My oldest plays on the HS team, and the level of play is much lower than the club teams, because the players are relatively new to each other and don't have that many practices before the season starts. He loves playing for the school team too, but it's not the path to playing in college for those who care about that.

I have three kids who play a sport each, and we barely make that work. I have no idea how we'd manage if they added another sport. Who can do that?