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Old 02-06-2019, 04:24 PM   #31
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
What's the expiration date, or statute of limitations, for attacking a politician for an ancient sin?
I think it depends on the context. Easy for me to say, but I think a long ago black face might be forgivable from someone with a demonstrated record of working for racial equality after they accept responsibility, admit wrongdoing, express understanding of the harm and seriously apology. For example, maybe Herron's response was adequate, especially as he disclosed it himself (I don't know anything about his record). But it's not really my call and I'm mostly trying to listen on these things.

Meanwhile, Northam's bungling settles the question for me.

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Warren's 1986 bar card is now an issue?
I don't think it's an issue that actually moves anyone, and I'm not sure who we are pretending was harmed.

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I don't think a racist... deserves much of a second chance, as I don't believe people with those issues really "evolve" very much.
I do, but then again, I think we're all sorta racist. But they've got to do the work.
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:26 PM   #32
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan View Post
I know you don't Facebook, but I think you can access this without an account: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...00008083698763 If you can't, let me know and I'll cut /paste in a PM for you.

This has to do with Liam Neeson thing, but I think it comes down to "how are you today?" This particular author comes down on the side of "clearly he is appalled at his past behavior and has learned something from it" with regard to Neeson. It's going to come down to a case-by-case basis, I think. With Warren, I think she's handled this entire issue badly, and so it's going to dog her for quite some time. With Northam, he fumbled right out of the gate and hasn't recovered. We'll see what happens with the AG guy. Since he's the one bringing it forward and presumably he's seen the mess Northam made, maybe he'll be able to present it better and convince the world that that isn't him anymore.

But as the piece above says, there are a shit-ton of people out there with downright racist pasts. Republicans don't seem to care as much about whether their candidates were (or are) racist/sexist/xenophobic/etc. I would have said they have a Jesus litmus test, but, well, Trump. Democrats do. But they don't know how to handle people who evolve.

I think a lot of it goes to the fact that no one deserves to be on top. NO ONE. And for each of the "oops, I wore blackface" idiots out there, there are plenty of perfectly good replacements who not once even considered it. And often they are the very people who the idiot was marginalizing/mocking/disparaging.
An aside to start... The Enoch Powell rally photo caused me to recall Eric Clapton's famous deranged racist speech in favor of Powell. (You can look that up. As a Clapton fan, and ascribing his behavior then to obvious multiple addictions, I don't want to link that rotten moment in his history.)

I agree that no one deserves to be on top. But due to a number of litmus tests we apply, there does seem to be a category of people who fit the acceptable mold. You must:

1. Have no consequential arrests;
2. Have had no mental health issues;
3. No history of enjoying recreational drugs and not disavowing them rigorously;
4. No libertine sexual exploits;
5. No admitted atheism;
6. No bisexuality;
7. No affairs (for which you haven't repented to some megachurch minister)

There are many more, but you get the point. We've allowed the puritans to decide who can ascend to office. That's caused us to elect all these closet creeps who have KKK photos in yearbooks or histories of sexual abuse allegations. And Trump hasn't broken that mold. He's an aberrational protest candidate.

People who have healthy social lives - who like to fuck, take a drug or drink or both now and again, tell a blue joke - don't have bizarre skeletons. They tend to have a blase, open book approach to their appetites and recreation.

We need to behave like European voters -- to shrug off personal issues and elect people based on policy. To apply an adult enough to view to surmise, "Warren may have played the game a bit dishonorably, but it was a long time ago, and what matters now are her policies."

But I doubt this will happen. Scolds and scowls from the Right have decided who's pure enough for office since the nation started. And all I see emerging now is a Left variety of this sad hazing/winnowing ritual. Thus, I think giving politicians a right to be forgotten as to nonviolent past misdeeds is the only fix.

The article was spot-on, by the way. If you're flipping out over Neeson's honest and helpful comments, you need a reading comp teacher. You're a fucking idiot.
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:39 PM   #33
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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I don't think it's an issue that actually moves anyone, and I'm not sure who we are pretending was harmed.
It is an "issue" used to belittle and ridicule someone without arguing with them. Look, people do that all the time, and usually it's not worth bothering with.

In this case, it's the link of the belittling with a racial slur that upsets me. I don't give a shit if you want to make fun of some mannerism or the like, such as Bernie's finger wag, but when you use a racial slur to do it, my skin crawls and my blood boils.
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:49 PM   #34
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
An aside to start... The Enoch Powell rally photo caused me to recall Eric Clapton's famous deranged racist speech in favor of Powell. (You can look that up. As a Clapton fan, and ascribing his behavior then to obvious multiple addictions, I don't want to link that rotten moment in his history.)
Absolutely. He should be remembered for dropping his kid out the window.
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:51 PM   #35
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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I think it depends on the context. Easy for me to say, but I think a long ago black face might be forgivable from someone with a demonstrated record of working for racial equality after they accept responsibility, admit wrongdoing, express understanding of the harm and seriously apology. For example, maybe Herron's response was adequate, especially as he disclosed it himself (I don't know anything about his record). But it's not really my call and I'm mostly trying to listen on these things.
It's a really subjective thing.

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Meanwhile, Northam's bungling settles the question for me.
"It's me and I'm sorry" to "It's actually not me" is strange. When you find that photo, your handlers have to get the facts down cold, near immediately.

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I don't think it's an issue that actually moves anyone, and I'm not sure who we are pretending was harmed.
Sure it does. Warren will never get a fair hearing on the issues she raises because the media will nail her on the Native American thing relentlessly, and the right wing media machine will trumpet it so loudly no one will hear anything else. And the dumbfuck voters and TV addicts will fixate on it like the only thing of significance to this person is whether she is or isn't some percentage Native American.

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I do, but then again, I think we're all sorta racist. But they've got to do the work.
I think everybody should get a second chance. Buhhhhhhtttt... Putting on blackface? Where the fuck do we get these people? I'm biased, perhaps, but it's not like I grew up in a diverse area. We have loads of racists all over the area where I was raised. But if you put on black face, two things would happen: You'd get your ass beaten down, and people would think you were a seriously fucked up freak. You have to be a damn strange fuck to put on blackface. (Unless you're Robert Downey in Tropic Thunder.)
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:53 PM   #36
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by oliver_wendell_ramone View Post
absolutely. He should be remembered for dropping his kid out the window.
poty
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:54 PM   #37
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
1. Have no consequential arrests;
Nah, people love a redemption story. The second-place candidate for mayor, and a sitting state legislator, was convicted of felony burglary (at 19) and talks about his past as part of his story. Yeah, you guessed, he's a white guy.

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2. Have had no mental health issues
Our immediately past mayor talked about her history of depression. But she didn't get re-elected and, yeah, white.

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3. No history of enjoying recreational drugs and not disavowing them rigorously
Both of those politicians are addicts, but yeah, now sober.

Do you think of Obama as having disavowed recreational drugs rigorously? I guess I don't and I think this one has sorta died with the prior two presidents, both known drug users.

If it's not dead, legal weed is going to kill it. I mean, you're probably not going to get elected on a "coke is great I do it all the time" platform, but having done it and just not talking about it is probably fine.

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4. No libertine sexual exploits
Again, I don't know that consensual, non-extramarital activities among adults are really an obstacle.

Photos and video of said activities might be, at least until such point as literally everyone has those materials out there in the public (which is coming).

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5. No admitted atheism
Yeah, that one is still a third rail.

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6. No bisexuality
The most recently elected senator from Arizona says hi.

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7. No affairs (for which you haven't repented to some megachurch minister)
The current president cheated on each of his three wives, so...

I think you're right that we're seeing voters require higher standards of personal conduct but I think that's a good thing.
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:00 PM   #38
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I think everybody should get a second chance. Buhhhhhhtttt... Putting on blackface? Where the fuck do we get these people? I'm biased, perhaps, but it's not like I grew up in a diverse area. We have loads of racists all over the area where I was raised. But if you put on black face, two things would happen: You'd get your ass beaten down, and people would think you were a seriously fucked up freak. You have to be a damn strange fuck to put on blackface. (Unless you're Robert Downey in Tropic Thunder.)
I mean, that's why Northam's "I don't know if it's me" is so hard to believe, but then people used to do lots of stupid shit. People are doing stupid shit right now.

I recall my friend group in college having a "pimps and hoes" party (I can't recall if I attended, seems likely, but doubtful I put much effort into dressing up), a concept that is essentially acting out stereotypes. Is that really so different?
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:11 PM   #39
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The article was spot-on, by the way. If you're flipping out over Neeson's honest and helpful comments, you need a reading comp teacher. You're a fucking idiot.
You have the ability to write a thoughtful post and then completely fuck it up in an instant. Jesus Christ.

Of course you can flip out over what Neeson said. He said he actually went out with a weapon looking for trouble so that he could fucking kill a random, innocent black person. That shit is not normal. Sure he's grown from it. Sure he lived in a place of daily, awful violence. I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt that he's a completely different person. But you don't get to say shit like that without people freaking the fuck out. The key is to have a thoughtful discussion. You started to and then, being Sebby, you completely fucked it all up.

I wish Robin Roberts had engaged him on this constant in the white community--and I've heard it so many fucking times: People of color who commit some heinous crime or do something awful have that action attributed to their race. White people who do the same are bad eggs. People of color who accomplish amazing things (or any level of success) (i) benefited from some type of assistance because of their color and/or (ii) have that success attributed to them as an individual, despite their race. That's why he was looking for any black person at all.

When asked by Roberts if he would have gone out "hunting" random white people to murder if the white person was a racist, Liam Neesons automatically changed the hypo because he couldn't even conceive of just hunting white people. He said if it were a Scot or a Lithuanian he'd have gone looking for them. But he wasn't hunting black Brits or Nigerians or whatever. He was looking for any black person, period. The distinction didn't even occur to him.

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Old 02-06-2019, 05:31 PM   #40
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
I mean, that's why Northam's "I don't know if it's me" is so hard to believe, but then people used to do lots of stupid shit. People are doing stupid shit right now.

I recall my friend group in college having a "pimps and hoes" party (I can't recall if I attended, seems likely, but doubtful I put much effort into dressing up), a concept that is essentially acting out stereotypes. Is that really so different?
Piecing through his various statements, I think that he had never seen the yearbook and assumed the picture was the Michael Jackson one, saw the picture, then had to explain that yeah, I was once in blackface, but not THAT blackface.

And I suppose if one had to rank blackface Michael Jackson would be slightly better than prop in Klan group costume. But really, it's not better.

Coincidentally, the night all of this was going down, my husband and I watched BlackkKlansman and we talked about how weird it must have been for the actors to have to wear those robes and say that dialogue. And how hard it must have been for Spike Lee to write it. My husband read that Spike Lee channeled Richard Pryor writing Blazing Saddles and almost wrote it as an absurd comedy so as to get through it.

Also, the story the cop tells the Klan to get immediately accepted as a bona fide racist is nearly EXACTLY the same one that Liam Neeson tells. It's a sister instead of unidentified relative, but it's nearly identical.
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:38 PM   #41
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
1. Have no consequential arrests;
2. Have had no mental health issues;
3. No history of enjoying recreational drugs and not disavowing them rigorously;
4. No libertine sexual exploits;
5. No admitted atheism;
6. No bisexuality;
7. No affairs (for which you haven't repented to some megachurch minister)
I only score 3 of 7. But I've got a great list for #1 - can I pick up extra points for having a record that includes "obstructing employment"?
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:39 PM   #42
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan View Post
Also, the story the cop tells the Klan to get immediately accepted as a bona fide racist is nearly EXACTLY the same one that Liam Neeson tells. It's a sister instead of unidentified relative, but it's nearly identical.
Worst crime ever.



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Old 02-06-2019, 06:17 PM   #43
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You have the ability to write a thoughtful post and then completely fuck it up in an instant. Jesus Christ.

Of course you can flip out over what Neeson said. He said he actually went out with a weapon looking for trouble so that he could fucking kill a random, innocent black person. That shit is not normal. Sure he's grown from it. Sure he lived in a place of daily, awful violence. I'll even give him the benefit of the doubt that he's a completely different person. But you don't get to say shit like that without people freaking the fuck out. The key is to have a thoughtful discussion. You started to and then, being Sebby, you completely fucked it all up.

I wish Robin Roberts had engaged him on this constant in the white community--and I've heard it so many fucking times: People of color who commit some heinous crime or do something awful have that action attributed to their race. White people who do the same are bad eggs. People of color who accomplish amazing things (or any level of success) (i) benefited from some type of assistance because of their color and/or (ii) have that success attributed to them as an individual, despite their race. That's why he was looking for any black person at all.

When asked by Roberts if he would have gone out "hunting" random white people to murder if the white person was a racist, Liam Neesons automatically changed the hypo because he couldn't even conceive of just hunting white people. He said if it were a Scot or a Lithuanian he'd have gone looking for them. But he wasn't hunting black Brits or Nigerians or whatever. He was looking for any black person, period. The distinction didn't even occur to him.

TM
It is reasonable to freak out at what Neeson said. I should have used a term more specific than “flipping out.” I’d say people calling for a boycott of him, or suggesting he needs to be exiled from his profession, need to get a grip. What he said was shocking, but it’s also the kind of honesty we need to address the issue. Added and Not Bob make a similar point when they admit they have had racist thoughts. But Liam is famous, and has admitted a truly violent racist thought. Those crying for him to pay a steep professional price do a huge disservice to their own ostensible goals.

My suspicion is most of those people are not terribly thoughtful, but more interested in publicly displaying outrage than actually addressing racism and the the issues caused by racism constructively.

ETA: If Neeson’s publicist were with him and heard him start that exchange, he or she would have jumped on the cameraman. Neeson is a sophisticated movie star. He knew he was taking a huge chance with that sort of honesty. This should not cost him a career where it’s clear he does not hold those views anymore, they were born of passion and social location at the time, and his intent is to assist in combatting racism.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:41 PM   #44
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
It is reasonable to freak out at what Neeson said. I should have used a term more specific than “flipping out.” I’d say people calling for a boycott of him, or suggesting he needs to be exiled from his profession, need to get a grip. What he said was shocking, but it’s also the kind of honesty we need to address the issue. Added and Not Bob make a similar point when they admit they have had racist thoughts. But Liam is famous, and has admitted a truly violent racist thought. Those crying for him to pay a steep professional price do a huge disservice to their own ostensible goals.

My suspicion is most of those people are not terribly thoughtful, but more interested in publicly displaying outrage than actually addressing racism and the the issues caused by racism constructively.

ETA: If Neeson’s publicist were with him and heard him start that exchange, he or she would have jumped on the cameraman. Neeson is a sophisticated movie star. He knew he was taking a huge chance with that sort of honesty. This should not cost him a career where it’s clear he does not hold those views anymore, they were born of passion and social location at the time, and his intent is to assist in combatting racism.
Agreed (although, pondering murder and actually going out looking for someone to murder is not borne of passion or social location (whatever that means)). The goal is to get this stuff out and talk about it, not to excuse what he tried to do by trying to explain it away.

If he were smarter (or more educated, maybe?)--and maybe a different person, because I'm not sure he could pull this off--he could have quoted Malcolm X, and said, "I was having a moment not dissimilar to what Malcolm X said in his famous quotation, 'When a snake bites your children, you don't go and look for the snake that has blood on it's jaws, any old snake will do.'"

On second thought, that probably would have been a terrible idea.

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Old 02-06-2019, 08:14 PM   #45
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Re: Northam, Warren, Fairfax...

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
It is reasonable to freak out at what Neeson said. I should have used a term more specific than “flipping out.” I’d say people calling for a boycott of him, or suggesting he needs to be exiled from his profession, need to get a grip. What he said was shocking, but it’s also the kind of honesty we need to address the issue. Added and Not Bob make a similar point when they admit they have had racist thoughts. But Liam is famous, and has admitted a truly violent racist thought. Those crying for him to pay a steep professional price do a huge disservice to their own ostensible goals.

My suspicion is most of those people are not terribly thoughtful, but more interested in publicly displaying outrage than actually addressing racism and the the issues caused by racism constructively.

ETA: If Neeson’s publicist were with him and heard him start that exchange, he or she would have jumped on the cameraman. Neeson is a sophisticated movie star. He knew he was taking a huge chance with that sort of honesty. This should not cost him a career where it’s clear he does not hold those views anymore, they were born of passion and social location at the time, and his intent is to assist in combatting racism.
It’s all Bullshit. Until the police come in and drag MEL Gibson out of the Oscars( front row?) it is all about who earns. Fuck them.
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