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01-17-2018, 09:26 AM
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#3826
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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Originally Posted by Adder
Dude. If she had no need to protect his privacy, then there was no violation. It's not a violation of a person who wronged you's privacy to tell people they wronged you. The wrong-doer has no privacy interest.
She told someone in the press that he was a jerk (you keep acting like she wrote it when she didn't). She gets to do that. Famous dude was a jerk. That's news these days, especially when he was a jerk in sort of the way everyone is talking about.
She did it, per what she said, because she saw hypocrisy in his anti-harassment posing at the golden globes. But so what? Someone who wrongs you doesn't get to claim you can't tell anyone. Where are you getting that?
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/1...new-york-times
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All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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01-17-2018, 09:33 AM
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#3827
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
I see very little in there on the pros and cons of the claw.
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Robert Stack has my proxy: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A83EzapOz_w
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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01-17-2018, 09:47 AM
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#3828
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,113
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I guess I just disagree that acting like a jerk* is a good reason to have that kind of story told about you. Maybe I just respect or value that sort of privacy more.
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Would it bother you if the story was about how he yelled at a waiter and left a bad tip? I assume no and that you think being a jerk about sex is more private than being a jerk about other stuff. I dunno.
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*And not in "the way everyone is talking about," unless you mean that the story appealed to readers' prurient interests.
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Don't agree at all. He was sexually aggressive in a way that probably doesn't meet the legal definition of assault but might meet the student conduct policy definition on many campuses. That it's just slightly over the line on the other side doesn't make it not in the same vein.
I don't recall if this was shared here, but I think it makes the point.
ETA: The point being, yeah, this is normal stuff that's happened to everybody and isn't what we generally think about as assault but none of that makes it okay either.
Last edited by Adder; 01-17-2018 at 09:54 AM..
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01-17-2018, 09:52 AM
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#3829
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,113
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
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Yes, Sebby, there are lots of stupid takes out there. You're doing a good job of sharing the worst of them.
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01-17-2018, 11:03 AM
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#3830
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder
Yes, Sebby, there are lots of stupid takes out there. You're doing a good job of sharing the worst of them.
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Look, dude... I read the Babe thing. I read the texts Ansari exchanged with her as well.
I see no sin in Grace putting her story out there. She did, and the public has properly criticized her for it (because it's not a #metoo situation). Seems an appropriate response.
And, appropriately, Ansari is not going to lose his career over it.
In fact, one could say this story is a godsend. It has defined the boundary where #metoo cannot be accused. That's helpful. (And, thankfully, efforts by some to suggest Ansari's behavior should fall into a new category, #kindabutnotreallymetoo, has been rejected [Despite Vox's and Vice's efforts]).
Is Ansari a cad? Perhaps. Is Grace's story worth discussing because men should understand that, if you have to coerce the hell out of a woman, you should Just Stop? Absolutely.
But, is it a crime to manipulatively persuade someone into sex? No. Is it a #metoo situation if you nag a woman into having sex with you while you're both undressed and hooking up? No. Is pestering to the point a woman decides, "Fuck it. I'll just blow him so he'll stfu already and I can get back to watching Seinfeld" a mens rea moment? No.
And does Grace's story infantilize women? Yes, it does. He had no control over this woman. Could not tank her career as she worked in a different area. Could not physically compel her to anything (he weighs all of a buck twenty), and nor did he try. She could have left at any time she wanted. In many regards this instance sounds like the joke Chappelle took shit for -- the one where he asked, quite reasonably, why a woman who claimed to be offended by a man masturbating on the other end of a phone didn't "just hang up."
Ansari may be a cad. But so are a lot of people. It's worth talking about this stuff. But it isn't #metoo.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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01-17-2018, 11:21 AM
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#3831
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder
Don't agree at all. He was sexually aggressive in a way that probably doesn't meet the legal definition of assault but might meet the student conduct policy definition on many campuses. That it's just slightly over the line on the other side doesn't make it not in the same vein.
I don't recall if this was shared here, but I think it makes the point.
ETA: The point being, yeah, this is normal stuff that's happened to everybody and isn't what we generally think about as assault but none of that makes it okay either.
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This is not in the same vein with sexual assault. Sexual assault is defined by a criminal code, not a university behavior code. No prosecutor would look at this case. No detective would even investigate it.
Universities are private institutions that may apply any code they like to their students. Those codes are neither precedential nor persuasive as to the point of whether sexual assault involving adults who are not university students occurred. Those codes are not even precedential from one campus to another. The laws which govern sexual assault are written by legislators and administered by judges. They are not written by committees of professors and administered by university staff.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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01-17-2018, 11:21 AM
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#3832
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,113
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
But it isn't #metoo.
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I mostly agree with you, but why is this a point you need to make? Like, what's the point of you, personally, policing the boundaries of #metoo? Where did you get the notion that it's only about criminal or illegal conduct and does not include men being shitty about sex, especially if that topic is "worth talking about?"
I think it's worth talking about and don't particularly care or think I'm the right person to decide whether it's #metoo.
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01-17-2018, 11:27 AM
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#3833
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,113
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Sexual assault is defined by a criminal code, not a university behavior code.
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You can insist that but it isn't going to keep you from getting banned from campus when you violate its definition of assault.
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Universities are private institutions that may apply any code they like to their students.
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Many of them are public. All of them get public money. Title IX requires them them to take steps to combat sexual assault on campus. This is why they have adopted more stringent codes.
One thing I think is interesting is that this conflict between Grace's worldview - which is in line with how those codes generally go - and the rest of ours, which is much more consistent with criminal and civil liability. To the extent that there are any negative consequences for Ansari - and as I've said I don't think there will be anything meaningful - it is because some group of people, likely younger people, who think that conduct like this is problematic, per the campus codes. Public opinion is not written by legislators and administered by judges. It is definitely shaped by, among other things, what people are taught in school.
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01-17-2018, 11:40 AM
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#3834
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder
I mostly agree with you, but why is this a point you need to make? Like, what's the point of you, personally, policing the boundaries of #metoo? Where did you get the notion that it's only about criminal or illegal conduct and does not include men being shitty about sex, especially if that topic is "worth talking about?"
I think it's worth talking about and don't particularly care or think I'm the right person to decide whether it's #metoo.
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The point needs to be made because Babe launched its missive in the midst of a #metoo moment with the intent of unfairly lumping Ansari into the group of men who are rightly accused of #metoo offenses. That he is not of that crowd cannot be stated strongly enough. That its action in offering that story with the suggestion he is cannot be decried strongly enough. (If you read the Babe piece carefully, it is subtly written to suggest lack of consent and rudeness (for instance, "I prefer red wine, but [Ansari] gave me no choice but white"... translating generously to, "he wasn't thinking about my needs, but his own" or less generously, "he was getting me tipsy").
I don't blame Grace. I smell the stink of creative editing all over this piece, and the people at Babe are getting exactly the controversy they wanted.
"Bad sex" is a topic worth discussing. And guys thinking sex should work like porn are fucked up, and we should have a discussion about how porn is fucking up sex for some people. But this Babe article is a very cynical media campaign, and it only started that conversation by accident. It was written, quite obviously, as a gotcha piece by a very sleazy editor. They wanted a pelt to put on the wall, and it backfired against Grace (with no damage to Babe). And when it gets too hot, the folks at Babe will throw Grace under the bus. They'll leak her name and write a self-serving meta piece about the episode, like Rolling Stone did with the UVA thing.
Grace, Ansari, us... We're all being played here, by Babe. And because this is a really important conversation which should lead to a constructive discussion of what women want in the bedroom, and what men are doing wrong, it should be raised more constructively. It shouldn't start as a tainted thing, initiated by a sleazy website using Harvey Levin's "gotcha" approach.
However, I do agree, to the extent it started the conversation, it's a positive. But if you've worked with or around the media people who start these things (and we all know a few), this story stinks like shit from the start.
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All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
Last edited by sebastian_dangerfield; 01-17-2018 at 11:43 AM..
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01-17-2018, 11:47 AM
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#3835
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I am beyond a rank!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,113
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The point needs to be made because Babe launched its missive in the midst of a #metoo moment with the intent of unfairly lumping Ansari into the group of men who are rightly accused of #metoo offenses.
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He's accused of being aggressive and engaging in less than enthusiastic consensual sexual conduct, or, as Grace put it missing or ignoring her signals. That sounds like #metoo to me, but I'm not the expert on its boundaries you are, so maybe I'm wrong.
Quote:
(If you read the Babe piece carefully, it is subtly written to suggest lack of consent and rudeness (for instance, "I prefer red wine, but [Ansari] gave me no choice but white"... translating generously to, "he wasn't thinking about my needs, but his own" or less generously, "he was getting me tipsy").
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There was nothing subtle about it.
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01-17-2018, 11:51 AM
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#3836
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[intentionally omitted]
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 18,595
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
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This piece is also very good and I think gets to the essence of what Adder was trying to convey.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ed-opportunity
TM
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01-17-2018, 11:55 AM
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#3837
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
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You can insist that but it isn't going to keep you from getting banned from campus when you violate its definition of assault.
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But it's not going to get you convicted or even investigated off campus.
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Many of them are public. All of them get public money. Title IX requires them them to take steps to combat sexual assault on campus. This is why they have adopted more stringent codes.
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This event took place off campus. Again, in the real world, where Title IX concerns are not considered, this is not getting even investigated.
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One thing I think is interesting is that this conflict between Grace's worldview - which is in line with how those codes generally go - and the rest of ours, which is much more consistent with criminal and civil liability.
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I don;t see him getting convicted of anything on campus, either. He was coercive and crude, but no compelling force was brought to bear. He was a pest, and a creep. But the door was always open for her to leave. She was clearly neither afraid nor so disturbed that she felt the need to run away, or call anyone. No, she hung out and watched Seinfeld, at his suggestion.
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To the extent that there are any negative consequences for Ansari - and as I've said I don't think there will be anything meaningful - it is because some group of people, likely younger people, who think that conduct like this is problematic, per the campus codes.
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That's a discussion for them to have. Another discussion for them to have is, "Does suggesting women should be able to file a grievance for a man being a pest during a sexual encounter include the presumption women can't handle such a situation for themselves? I don't know a woman who couldn't handle this situation with a simple, 'I'm getting an Uber. I'm out of here.'"
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Public opinion is not written by legislators and administered by judges. It is definitely shaped by, among other things, what people are taught in school.
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Agreed. But the words "sexual assault" used in the context of off-campus acts, are very much terms of art. People lose their freedom when they are used. And correctly, in the real world, they are taken very seriously.
"A miserable sexual encounter" describes Ansari's situation. Calling it sexual assault insults assault victims.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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01-17-2018, 12:01 PM
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#3838
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
He's accused of being aggressive and engaging in less than enthusiastic consensual sexual conduct, or, as Grace put it missing or ignoring her signals. That sounds like #metoo to me, but I'm not the expert on its boundaries you are, so maybe I'm wrong.
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Missing signals is not #metoo. Ignoring them? Yes.
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There was nothing subtle about it.
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I agree. The writer sucks. The shading to suggest more nefarious behavior is painfully obvious. But the intent was to be subtle. Unfortunately, at $10 a hour, these website aren't hiring any William Safires in the making.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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01-17-2018, 12:02 PM
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#3839
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Moderasaurus Rex
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adder
Would it bother you if the story was about how he yelled at a waiter and left a bad tip? I assume no and that you think being a jerk about sex is more private than being a jerk about other stuff. I dunno.
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Yes, I think that what you do in the privacy of a bedroom is more private than what you do in a public restaurant. YMMV, but I doubt it.
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Don't agree at all. He was sexually aggressive in a way that probably doesn't meet the legal definition of assault but might meet the student conduct policy definition on many campuses. That it's just slightly over the line on the other side doesn't make it not in the same vein.
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Oh, bullshit. This didn't happen on a campus and it didn't involve minors. He is in his thirties, and she was no minor. The current conversation is "around" men who have abused their professional authority, something you can't say Aziz did.
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I don't recall if this was shared here, but I think it makes the point.
ETA: The point being, yeah, this is normal stuff that's happened to everybody and isn't what we generally think about as assault but none of that makes it okay either.
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I read that before and now I've read it again, and I'm not sure I disagree with any of it. You seem to be writing under the misunderstanding that I'm defending Aziz or saying that what he did is "okay," rather than responding to what I've actually said.
If the NSA bugged Aziz's room and released recordings that a reporter used to write an article about how he behaved that night, I expect that the left would be in an uproar about the invasion of his privacy. Apparently it's OK to make an example of him in the name of reforming our sexual mores.
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“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
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01-17-2018, 12:11 PM
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#3840
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yes, I think that what you do in the privacy of a bedroom is more private than what you do in a public restaurant. YMMV, but I doubt it.
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I think a sub-lesson of all this might be, Be good in the sack, or don't try at all.
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