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Old 07-02-2018, 11:44 AM   #1516
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: Civility

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An acorn is not a tree. If you believe that a blastocyte has a "soul" such as to justify forcing a woman to term, we cannot have a rational discussion.
Eventually, the science will provide adequate consensus regarding where pain is felt by a fetus. It'll never be a perfect delineation, but it will provide some strong guidance that can't be attacked by some hack pseudo-research from the pro-lifers.

This has always been an argument of absolutes where an argument of degree was appropriate. It's understandable, of course, as pro-choice people have been forced into a situation where they cannot concede an inch. But it's led to a very dumb debate. I don't think even most pro-lifers really believe conscious life begins at conception. It's flatly absurd.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:51 AM   #1517
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Re: Civility

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As my hippie Con Law professor put it, without Roe the state could compel abortions just as easily as it can forbid abortion.
I hated con law and still do. I'd boil the argument on Roe down to the following:

There must be a federal rule that precludes states from telling women they cannot end their pregnancies because without such a rule, states would be allowed to effectively make women second class citizens.

I don't offer a con law theory to support this argument because I never paid attention in the class, except regarding First Amendment issues, which I find interesting. But it seems to me that compelling women to carry a pregnancy to term discriminates against them. Men can never be so compelled, and so enjoy complete autonomy over their bodies. Women must also have such complete control.

Partial birth abortion introduces a viable third person into the mix whose rights must be measured against the woman's. But I think that can be handled. We can weigh interests and reach logical decisions on that.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:55 AM   #1518
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The House that Who Built?

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We are all Babe Ruth.
Add to this the fact that alongside Ruth, slavery indirectly built Yankee Stadium...
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:50 PM   #1519
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Re: Civility

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I hated con law and still do. I'd boil the argument on Roe down to the following:

There must be a federal rule that precludes states from telling women they cannot end their pregnancies because without such a rule, states would be allowed to effectively make women second class citizens.

I don't offer a con law theory to support this argument because I never paid attention in the class, except regarding First Amendment issues, which I find interesting. But it seems to me that compelling women to carry a pregnancy to term discriminates against them. Men can never be so compelled, and so enjoy complete autonomy over their bodies. Women must also have such complete control.

Partial birth abortion introduces a viable third person into the mix whose rights must be measured against the woman's. But I think that can be handled. We can weigh interests and reach logical decisions on that.
This is the most sense you've made in a long time. Including on con law.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:33 PM   #1520
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Re: Civility

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I think that Chief Justice Roberts will try to hold off on it for a decent interval, but yes.
The moderate Republicans are the ones like Susan Collins who convince you that it's not them, it's the rest of the party.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:34 PM   #1521
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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13th amendment has something to do with union officials demanding a cut of actual employees salary? I saw a union estimate they will lose 200000 members and that will be $220 million a year. $1000 per employee. And you bring up the 13th? WTF?
I would like to have someone whose job it is to negotiate my salary and working conditions, but whom I don't have to pay.
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:25 AM   #1522
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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I would like to have someone whose job it is to negotiate my salary and working conditions, but whom I don't have to pay.
Then it would be great if a union only negotiated on behalf of people who wanted such representation and were willing to pay for it, and didn't compel people to be members to keep their job. There are plenty of people who don't want to be "organized".

I would much prefer to be able to negotiate for what is important to me, not at the expense of protecting others who may not be doing their jobs.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:35 AM   #1523
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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I would like to have someone whose job it is to negotiate my salary and working conditions, but whom I don't have to pay.
good for you! but see, no one is saying you can't keep paying dues.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:19 AM   #1524
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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good for you! but see, no one is saying you can't keep paying dues.
It would be the ultimate test of the value of unions if the individuals got to decide whether the services provided were worth the cost, no?
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:47 AM   #1525
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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It would be the ultimate test of the value of unions if the individuals got to decide whether the services provided were worth the cost, no?
So, one employee can thwart the choice of the majority of her fellow workers, but one shareholder of a corporation is forced to go along with decisions made by the majority of shareholders?

I mean, hey, you don’t have to buy shares of a corporation whose structure gives Marky Z most of the votes. Or you could sell the shares if they decide to make corporate political donations to the GOP. In contrast, one would be foolish to argue that the individual workers did choose to follow the majority of happy union workers by accepting a job that requires union membership. Or ones who were in the minority of a successful union certification could seek work elsewhere. I mean, that’s just apples and oranges, right?
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:01 AM   #1526
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Then it would be great if a union only negotiated on behalf of people who wanted such representation and were willing to pay for it, and didn't compel people to be members to keep their job. There are plenty of people who don't want to be "organized".
These people are called "freeloaders" and "delusional."
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:47 AM   #1527
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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It would be the ultimate test of the value of unions if the individuals got to decide whether the services provided were worth the cost, no?
I give Not Bob my proxy on the underlying debate about collective bargaining versus this kind of individual bargaining.

But I'd point out that, economically, unions have been critical to the US economy. The ability of the workers in the auto plants to buy the cars they make, and of other workers in other industries to similarly be able to afford their own products, is what has given us the powerful market that we have today, and that has arisen because of collective bargaining.

One of the things happening today in tech is that the work is starting to get fragmented out so low wage sweatshop environments can be used to perform some of the work not needing more talented or educated work forces. The dynamics that made tech a high-wage industry that wasn't unionized, especially the shortage of talent and the need for unique talents for even ordinary tasks, are fading. If collective bargaining doesn't develop in the industry, expect to see big economic problems as that portion of the US market's buying power shrinks.

We live in a world today where large portions of the country have chosen, especially by undermining unions and education, to compete with China, Vietnam and the Philippines, at the very point when China in particular is choosing to compete with California and Massachusetts. Aim higher, people. Aim higher.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:55 PM   #1528
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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So, one employee can thwart the choice of the majority of her fellow workers, but one shareholder of a corporation is forced to go along with decisions made by the majority of shareholders?

I mean, hey, you don’t have to buy shares of a corporation whose structure gives Marky Z most of the votes. Or you could sell the shares if they decide to make corporate political donations to the GOP. In contrast, one would be foolish to argue that the individual workers did choose to follow the majority of happy union workers by accepting a job that requires union membership. Or ones who were in the minority of a successful union certification could seek work elsewhere. I mean, that’s just apples and oranges, right?
this little debate is really fun! for the first time i'm seeing dems hate on their sacred cows. union members are golden UNLESS they don't want to pay union fees- then those same paragons of all that is great in america actually (at least according to Ty- 13th amendment!!!!) are effectively vile freeloaders. Double bonus fun points- you all are hating on government employee union members!!!!!

(and your "they don't have to work here" is too wrong on too many levels to even merit an answer)
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:00 PM   #1529
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
I give Not Bob my proxy on the underlying debate about collective bargaining versus this kind of individual bargaining.

But I'd point out that, economically, unions have been critical to the US economy. The ability of the workers in the auto plants to buy the cars they make, and of other workers in other industries to similarly be able to afford their own products, is what has given us the powerful market that we have today, and that has arisen because of collective bargaining.

One of the things happening today in tech is that the work is starting to get fragmented out so low wage sweatshop environments can be used to perform some of the work not needing more talented or educated work forces. The dynamics that made tech a high-wage industry that wasn't unionized, especially the shortage of talent and the need for unique talents for even ordinary tasks, are fading. If collective bargaining doesn't develop in the industry, expect to see big economic problems as that portion of the US market's buying power shrinks.

We live in a world today where large portions of the country have chosen, especially by undermining unions and education, to compete with China, Vietnam and the Philippines, at the very point when China in particular is choosing to compete with California and Massachusetts. Aim higher, people. Aim higher.
22222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222222

Nick Hanauer's been nailing related issues for years. (I see minimum wage and unionization as near indistinguishable items in terms of the broad economic debate about the inequality between capital and labor. I also see labor as a form of capital and think the distinction between the two is artificial [They should both be considered "assets," and leave it at that].)
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:01 PM   #1530
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
I give Not Bob my proxy on the underlying debate about collective bargaining versus this kind of individual bargaining.

But I'd point out that, economically, unions have been critical to the US economy. The ability of the workers in the auto plants to buy the cars they make, and of other workers in other industries to similarly be able to afford their own products, is what has given us the powerful market that we have today, and that has arisen because of collective bargaining.

One of the things happening today in tech is that the work is starting to get fragmented out so low wage sweatshop environments can be used to perform some of the work not needing more talented or educated work forces. The dynamics that made tech a high-wage industry that wasn't unionized, especially the shortage of talent and the need for unique talents for even ordinary tasks, are fading. If collective bargaining doesn't develop in the industry, expect to see big economic problems as that portion of the US market's buying power shrinks.

We live in a world today where large portions of the country have chosen, especially by undermining unions and education, to compete with China, Vietnam and the Philippines, at the very point when China in particular is choosing to compete with California and Massachusetts. Aim higher, people. Aim higher.
this has been debated here before, but the reason the UAW factories were able to provide high wages for work that could be done in other countries for a fraction of the price, is that US union members in other industries would never buy an Asian made car. And in turn UAW workers would never buy a Japanese TV. As long as those constructs held all was good. then they didn't hold anymore. Jobs are farmed out to low wage areas out of greed, at least not in the way you mean. jobs are farmed out because americans will no longer pay for americans to be paid.
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