No Faith in the Moral Standards of the Players as a Group

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Even if it makes no difference in how a quarterback throws, a deflated ball is easier to catch. That is not even debatable.

TM

Someone I know pointed out (before the air hit the fan) that the Pats last year had a fumble rate so low as to be statistically impossible.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

I want to destroy everything within 30 feet when this happens.

You'd make a good member of his crew.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Someone I know pointed out (before the air hit the fan) that the Pats last year had a fumble rate so low as to be statistically impossible.

There was an actual statistical analysis of this by Warren Sharp, done after the initial release of the incorrect inflation numbers.

It purported to show what you assert, but was shown by others to be a statistically flawed analysis because if failed to account for game situations and the likelihood fumbles would occur. When properly adjusted the figures look more normal and like a team that emphasizes ball control.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Goodell is completely full of shit. Wells, although thorough, left a hole big enough for the Patriots to drive a truck through, but Goodell can't give the golden boy a pass because he's already mucked up so much over the last few years. And the other owners will be furious because everyone knows he and Kraft are close and Brady is the face of the league.

On this, in Ty's words, Sally Jenkins has my proxy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...0ee_story.html

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

You'd make a good member of his crew.

I tend to watch at home, so not so much.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

On this, in Ty's words, Sally Jenkins has my proxy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...0ee_story.html

Good article. There is no question that Goodell is full of shit and is almost always making stupid decisions and then covering his ass.

I think Brady's team was confident enough in the texts to league-related employees that he could offer up text messages. The question is, did he actually offer up everything? Would it have been useful to have the phone to make sure? Did he do all his real dirt on Whatsapp instead of by text message? Did he message someone unrelated to the league something like "Damn, I love playing with non-regulation footballs and these idiots I have deflating my balls need to be told to deflate them to my standards all the damn time." Did he think that Wells would change his mind on whether he wanted to see his phone based on his meeting and decided to destroy the phone just in case?

Whatever. It's all beside the point.

The questions I have for you are: Do you think Brady prefers his balls deflated beyond league standards and do you think he either instructs his guys to do so or looks the other way when they do because he gains an advantage (or thinks he does)?

All of this technical, NFL due process, Goodell is a jackass is completely irrelevant to NFL fans who think Brady broke the rules. I suppose you can argue that it's possible they weren't under-inflated for this game. You can talk about how it doesn't really make a big difference. You can rightfully complain about the disciplinary process being a joke. You can argue that other teams cheat in similar ways and aren't treated as harshly. But the questions above stand.

Obviously I think Brady has been doing it for years. I think everyone who isn't a Patriots fan thinks he has as well. This is why Goodell is going to win even if the court rules the disciplinary process was complete bullshit. No matter how shitty the process, every non-Patriots fan knows Brady was cheating. If he gets away with it with no punishment, it will be worse for his legacy than just eating the fucking suspension.

Brady shouldn't be looking at other Patriots fans to figure out what he should do. All those dumbasses will say fight any punishment until the end of time. He should be looking at guys like me, who generally like and respect him but who don't give two shits about the Patriots, who are losing respect for him based on his lying, "I'm so innocent" bullshit. If he were smart, he would have said, "I like the balls deflated as low as possible, but I had no idea they were so far below league standards," right away. He then should have rewarded his guys for letting him throw them under the bus, taken whatever punishment the league would have dished out, avoided an investigation altogether and moved on. I, and other fans like me, would have respected that.

TM

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Icky Thump

Someone I know pointed out (before the air hit the fan) that the Pats last year had a fumble rate so low as to be statistically impossible.

That's been debated on the interwebs, and if I recall, largely debunked.

I don't think we need it to make much difference (to TM - how much easier to ctach?) to think that punishment is appropriate.

Then you get into how much, which given that league's complete lack of precedent or willingness to abide by precedent, is just a pissing match guided only by the speaker's personal sense of moral outrage.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

On this, in Ty's words, Sally Jenkins has my proxy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...0ee_story.html

It's funny, Goodell pulled a lot of the same crap with Adrian Peterson, but who's really going to care much about it when the conduct involved is so heinous?

Brady and this issue look like a much better test case for the NFLPA.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

The questions I have for you are: Do you think Brady prefers his balls deflated beyond league standards and do you think he either instructs his guys to do so or looks the other way when they do because he gains an advantage (or thinks he does)?

It's clear he wants them soft. I have no idea whether he wants them softer than the rules allow. My guess is that he told the equipment guys he likes them soft and to "make it happen", that they may have (but I don't know) sometimes let air out of them, but that Brady didn't know they were doing that, just that they were getting them softer.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

but that Brady didn't know they were doing that, just that they were getting them softer.

How are they softer without letting air out of them?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

If he were smart, he would have said, "I like the balls deflated as low as possible, but I had no idea they were so far below league standards," right away. He then should have rewarded his guys for letting him throw them under the bus, taken whatever punishment the league would have dished out, avoided an investigation altogether and moved on. I, and other fans like me, would have respected that.

TM

No question Brady could have played this a hell of a lot better, and remained on much higher ground than he clearly is. But I'm not sure the above works - he could say "I like 'em deflated" (just like Aaron rodgers likes them hard) but the "below league standards" part doesn't work because the refs are supposed to check them. So he'd have to say something like "I like 'em soft and that's what we submit for approval before the game - I figure that if they somehow end up below the limits the refs will take care of that."

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally Posted by Adder

How are they softer without letting air out of them?

You do realize balls come without air in them? The ball guys get the balls, put some air in, work them around with whatever tools those guys use (there was an article on Eli Manning ball prep in NY times a couple years ago), get the coating off and rough up the leather. Then, shortly before the game they put just enough air into them to make them 12.5. My point is he's asking to have them inflated to 12.5 psi, rather than >13.5 as Rodgers wants or 16+ as apparently happened in the Jets game that got Brady so pissed.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

You do realize balls come without air in them? The ball guys get the balls, put some air in, work them around with whatever tools those guys use (there was an article on Eli Manning ball prep in NY times a couple years ago), get the coating off and rough up the leather. Then, shortly before the game they put just enough air into them to make them 12.5. My point is he's asking to have them inflated to 12.5 psi, rather than >13.5 as Rodgers wants or 16+ as apparently happened in the Jets game that got Brady so pissed.

It's entirely possible that he knew they were deflating them, but not that they were deflating them below the lower limit, yeah.

I've not followed it that closely, but it seems like he knew they were deflating them after they had been checked by the refs though. If that's right, what reason is there to mess with them after they've been checked? Really makes it look like you want to do something the refs would not approve, doesn't it?

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

TM - how much easier to catch?

Considerably. But even if it only makes that one catch possible on a pass that would have been dropped--on a scoring drive that would have stalled otherwise--that's significant.

And I keep going back to cold weather games for a reason. When it's really cold, a fully inflated ball is very slick. If there's any pace on a pass at all, it's extremely difficult to catch. If it's raining or snowing, a deflated ball is easier to catch as well.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

It's clear he wants them soft. I have no idea whether he wants them softer than the rules allow. My guess is that he told the equipment guys he likes them soft and to "make it happen", that they may have (but I don't know) sometimes let air out of them, but that Brady didn't know they were doing that, just that they were getting them softer.

You really believe that a professional quarterback doesn't know the difference between a regulation ball and one that is underinflated? There's some willful ignorance going on here, and I'm not sure if it's you or (if you're right) Brady. But willful ignorance is the absolute best you're gonna do. I just don't think someone who has dedicated his life to football does not know exactly what is going on with the footballs he plays with every day of his life.

Hell, I don't play basketball professionally, but I can instantly tell you whenever a ball is underinflated without even bouncing it.

TM