Law School in Chicago

[supernga]

Hi Chicagoans!



I am planning on going to law school this fall. However, as you may know, the options are stressful. You see, I got accepted into NIU on a full tuition plus $300 monthly stipend. But it is a smaller school, and I'm not sure how hard it will be to get a job back in TX after I graduate. I also got accepted into DePaul, and I am a lot more excited about DePaul than I am about NIU. However, DePaul is only giving me a $10K, which does not cover the $27K tuition. I also got accepted into Hofstra, on no scholarship, and St. Mary's and TX Wesleyan on very little scholarship, and am on the waiting list for UH. My question is: Is it better to go to the highest ranking school on no scholarship and owe out of the wazzoo in loans; go to a good school on substantial scholarship and still owe money, because it's in a very expensive city; go to a Tier IV on a full ride; or go to a Tier IV school in TX, because that's where I plan to practice.

I've asked many people about this, and everyone has given me a different answer. I figured since you are practicing lawyers in Chicago, you would be familiar with NIU and DePaul and their reputations. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by supernga
Hi Chicagoans!



I am planning on going to law school this fall. However, as you may know, the options are stressful. You see, I got accepted into NIU on a full tuition plus $300 monthly stipend. But it is a smaller school, and I'm not sure how hard it will be to get a job back in TX after I graduate. I also got accepted into DePaul, and I am a lot more excited about DePaul than I am about NIU. However, DePaul is only giving me a $10K, which does not cover the $27K tuition. I also got accepted into Hofstra, on no scholarship, and St. Mary's and TX Wesleyan on very little scholarship, and am on the waiting list for UH. My question is: Is it better to go to the highest ranking school on no scholarship and owe out of the wazzoo in loans; go to a good school on substantial scholarship and still owe money, because it's in a very expensive city; go to a Tier IV on a full ride; or go to a Tier IV school in TX, because that's where I plan to practice.

I've asked many people about this, and everyone has given me a different answer. I figured since you are practicing lawyers in Chicago, you would be familiar with NIU and DePaul and their reputations. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Okay. I'll be the asshole who bursts your bubble.

If you want to work at a large firm, none of these schools are going to impress them at all. Go to the one you can afford most easily, work your ass off, and if you don't make it into the top ten your first year, drop out go do something worthwhile with your life.

If you just want to move back to Texas and work in a smaller firm, then local connections are going to be far mored important than anything else. Go to UH or South Texas and make friends with all the lawyers you can.

By the way, the pay difference between the two options is tens of thousands of dollars. You may just want to say fuck it all, and go do something worthwhile with your life right now, before you get sucked in.

[mmm3587]

It's kind of a complicated question. Getting a full ride is always a good deal, and housing will be cheap as hell in Dekalb. But it's also Dekalb, and, even if you do well, I can't imagine that the placement options would be be very good in Texas or anywhere else outside of Illinois.

DePaul is a decent school, but, again, if you're sure you're going back to Texas, I don't think that it makes sense to come to Chicago for school unless you are at NU or U of C. There are no public law schools here, and Chicago is a pretty expensive place to live. It would be one thing if you were sure or were at least considering working here. It doesn't sound like that's the case, so I don't think that it makes sense to come here.

My opinion on law schools is that you should not incur massive debt that you can't easily pay back (i.e. things might be different if you have a well-off family, are expecting a big inheritance or have a high-earning spouse) unless there is a real reason for doing so. It doesn't sound like your situation warrants spending a lot of $$ for law school. Why don't you look at public schools near where you live that will get you placed in Texas better? I don't know what they are, but there have to be some good options.

As far as NIU, I have no real information about how easy it will be to get placed into Texas or other markets from there, but you will probably have to do very well if that's your goal. Also, as a former resident of Texas, I can't imagine coming to Dekalb and suffering through a cold, windy winter in a flat plains of northern Illinois, but still being 90 minutes or more from Chicago. Have you visited it? Do you like the rural outdoors?

[supernga]

No, I haven't visited Chicago yet, but I plan to, once I find a good deal. I did apply to schools in TX; however, I got waited listed at UH, the only state school I applied to (I missed the TX Tech deadline, and there's NO way I would make into UT, and TX Southern is a TERRIBLE school). I was told to regard a wait-list as a rejection, because there is no guarantee that they will accept you. St. Mary's and TX Wesleyan both accepted me, but they gave me minimal scholarship, and are very expensive for the quality of the program. Wesleyan has the highest dropout rate, and St. Mary's has a very poor bar passage rate. I still haven't heard back from SMU, Baylor, or South TX yet. Hopefully I will hear back soon. I guess my viewpoint was that if I was going to go to a Tier IV school, I might as well go to one on a full-ride in another state than stay in-state and pay a lot of $$$ for a crappy education. Hofstra is only a few rankings above DePaul, and money-wise, it would be better to attend DePaul, especially since they are in the top 10 for IP law and health law. Almost everyone I've spoken to down here is familiar with DePaul, but NO ONE knows where or what NIU is. Plus, I'm a city girl, I cannot imagine living in the middle of a cornfield and be happy. It sucks to have to wait, because SMU and Baylor were my top choices, and they just happen to be the last ones to reply. Did you guys have to wait as long? BTW, thanks for the insightful advice. I went to a message board on JD2B.com, and there were informational postings, but A LOT of racist postings! I'm not sure if it's even a legitimate board, because they were posting a lot of derogatory threads about minorities. It made me feel very uncomfortable.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by supernga
No, I haven't visited Chicago yet, but I plan to, once I find a good deal. I did apply to schools in TX; however, I got waited listed at UH, the only state school I applied to (I missed the TX Tech deadline, and there's NO way I would make into UT, and TX Southern is a TERRIBLE school). I was told to regard a wait-list as a rejection, because there is no guarantee that they will accept you. St. Mary's and TX Wesleyan both accepted me, but they gave me minimal scholarship, and are very expensive for the quality of the program. Wesleyan has the highest dropout rate, and St. Mary's has a very poor bar passage rate. I still haven't heard back from SMU, Baylor, or South TX yet. Hopefully I will hear back soon. I guess my viewpoint was that if I was going to go to a Tier IV school, I might as well go to one on a full-ride in another state than stay in-state and pay a lot of $$$ for a crappy education. Hofstra is only a few rankings above DePaul, and money-wise, it would be better to attend DePaul, especially since they are in the top 10 for IP law and health law. Almost everyone I've spoken to down here is familiar with DePaul, but NO ONE knows where or what NIU is. Plus, I'm a city girl, I cannot imagine living in the middle of a cornfield and be happy. It sucks to have to wait, because SMU and Baylor were my top choices, and they just happen to be the last ones to reply. Did you guys have to wait as long? BTW, thanks for the insightful advice. I went to a message board on JD2B.com, and there were informational postings, but A LOT of racist postings! I'm not sure if it's even a legitimate board, because they were posting a lot of derogatory threads about minorities. It made me feel very uncomfortable.

What do you envision your compensation as being? Are you thinking that you will want to work at BB or V&E or whatever, or at a smaller firm? People who aren't connected -- and for all I know, you are connected -- basically face the following, based on my experiences interviewing in TX and being, god help me, on the recruiting committee at BigTex in Dallas for a few years. People in the top 10% at UT have tons of choices in TX -- virtually unlimited. People in the top 10% at UH have a lot of choices, but certainly not unlimited; they may do better in Houston than in Dallas, and chances will be better at midlaw. The very top students at St. Mary's might have a chance at getting a clerkship at one BigTex firm, but everyone else will be fighting for the interview slots at smaller firms. Last I heard, TX Wesleyan was barely accredited -- unless you are sure you are going to be looking at firms that you already know have alums there, I would not recommend that school. SMU alums are pretty enthused, so if you do well there, you might have a lot of opportunities. Baylor is good only if you know for sure you want to do litigation. Yeah, they'll tell you it's general crap, but I know non-litigation people who went there and they didn't like having to do all the mandatory trial crap. I am not familiar with South TX.

If you have never lived in the north, you are going to be shocked as hell at the Chicago winters and I would not be surprised if the sheer misery of them affected your academic performance.

Of the Chicago schools, I think you are right that people in TX have heard of DePaul. But, I doubt that many TX firms interview on-campus there, and as you should be aware, the clerkship(s) you do after your second year of law school frequently determine(s) where you will be working after law school.

The $.02 of someone who has spent chunks of time in Chicago in the winter and practiced in TX. PM me if you want even more specifics.

[mmm3587]

I think that a lot of those pre-law student oriented boards (Princeton Review, Jd2b.com, etc.) are populated by a bunch of overachieving know-nothings who don't have many social skills*, and I really wouldn't worry about what they have to say. I don't think that the law has a higher incidence of racists than other professions, and I think that it's probably lower than a lot of them.

This board is almost exclusively (smart-ass) practicing lawyers, and I think that is occasionally reflected in the quality of the comments (and insults).

Maybe it's more bubble-bursting, but you might want to wait a year and apply to some other places. If I lived in Texas and wanted to go to law school on the cheap with the intent to ultimately practice in Texas, I think that I would look at the law schools of the various large state schools around there. What about places like Oklahoma, Nebraska, Arizona, New Mexico and their various large state schools. From a perusal of the rankings, it seems that all of them have reasonably high-ranked (Tier 2) schools, and I imagine that a degree from those places would serve you much better in Texas (and be a lot cheaper) than Depaul or the other places you taked about.

* No comment about whether or not that applies to the crew around here.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by supernga
No, I haven't visited Chicago yet, but I plan to, once I find a good deal. I did apply to schools in TX; however, I got waited listed at UH, the only state school I applied to (I missed the TX Tech deadline, and there's NO way I would make into UT, and TX Southern is a TERRIBLE school). I was told to regard a wait-list as a rejection, because there is no guarantee that they will accept you. St. Mary's and TX Wesleyan both accepted me, but they gave me minimal scholarship, and are very expensive for the quality of the program. Wesleyan has the highest dropout rate, and St. Mary's has a very poor bar passage rate. I still haven't heard back from SMU, Baylor, or South TX yet. Hopefully I will hear back soon. I guess my viewpoint was that if I was going to go to a Tier IV school, I might as well go to one on a full-ride in another state than stay in-state and pay a lot of $$$ for a crappy education. Hofstra is only a few rankings above DePaul, and money-wise, it would be better to attend DePaul, especially since they are in the top 10 for IP law and health law. Almost everyone I've spoken to down here is familiar with DePaul, but NO ONE knows where or what NIU is. Plus, I'm a city girl, I cannot imagine living in the middle of a cornfield and be happy. It sucks to have to wait, because SMU and Baylor were my top choices, and they just happen to be the last ones to reply. Did you guys have to wait as long? BTW, thanks for the insightful advice. I went to a message board on JD2B.com, and there were informational postings, but A LOT of racist postings! I'm not sure if it's even a legitimate board, because they were posting a lot of derogatory threads about minorities. It made me feel very uncomfortable.

I'm no Chicagoan (Chicagoite? Chicagoian? whatever), but I spent some time in BigLaw in Dallas and my perspective on your TX choices follows:

Do NOT go to Wesleyan if you have any interest in finding a paying law gig. It has probably the lowest placement of ANY Texas school (including TX Southern, St Mary's etc.). I think it was only accredited in the last 5 years. Many grads end up working as paralegals. Stay away.

I knew a few people from the other Tier IV TX schools that you mentioned that made it into BigLaw and others who made it into MidLaw. Not undoable, but you'll need to do well in school.

If you are committed to going this year (as opposed to waiting and reapplying to the likes of Tech next year), I'd say that you should go to the best reputation school that you can get into. I wouldn't do the scholarship at a lesser school route because, as unfair as it might seem, you will be judged for much of your career, and for at least the first 5 years after you graduate on the basis of where you went to school. It sucks but it is true.

If you can get into a reasonably good TX school, you should probably go there. UH, SMU and even Tech grads do pretty well in the Dallas market.

Depaul or Hofstra probably won't carry much weight there, though sometimes firms, for whatever reason, seem to like the rare non-TX grad over another UH/UT, etc. person. Interviewing in TX will be tougher from those schools b/c not many TX firms (if any) will participate in OCI, so you'll probably have to pay your way down and do mass mailings/work local connections to even get any interviews for summer programs. Not undoable, but hard.

I guess that is all I have for you right now. Good luck.

[supernga]

I think it was just a couple of bad apples, but I am surprised that the web site would allow race-bashing like that. They were saying stuff that I can't even repeat here. JD2B pretty much threw its credibility out the door by doing that. This is how stupid they were, they thought I was a big angry black man when I asked them if it was a white supremicist message board. I'm just a little Asian girl with an intolerance for bigotry. And a sass mouth. I also accused them of having wet dreams of Hitler in their sleep. C'mon, I had to say something mean, right?

I don't think at this point that I would wait until re-apply. If I do, I will lose my motivation to go, and I'll just say, "Screw it" and stick with my job. You see, I graduated 6 years ago, and am now going back to school. That's why I was only going to apply to TX schools at first. But then all of these schools from out of state offered to waive my app fee if I applied, and I figured I might as well, since it's free. All of those schools accepted me, except Washington & Lee, and I'm still waiting on them. I hope I get in there, because I'll definitely go there for sure, since it's in the top 25, and I've read nothing but wonderful things about them. Still in a small town, but at least it won't be brutally cold like Dekalb.

I guess I really didn't think I'd have as many choices as I do, and getting as big as scholarships as I have gotten. I figured with my old ass of 29, I'd only get into a small law school. I guess my LSAT score really impressed them.

Is it at all impossible to go to school out of state and then try to find a clerkship back home? Say for instance, I go to Chicago, will it be impossible for me to find a clerkship back in Dallas? I know many firms have multiple locations in major cities, so there is a chance, right?

SMU is my top choice. However, since they started their evening program, they've become a lot more selective. And their drop in rankings makes me worry that they will look at only the star candidates. They did call and asked if I was interested in being considered for the evening program. I said yes, as long as they still put me into consideration for the day program. I hope I get into the day program. I really don't know if I can handle stretching out law school for 4 years.

As for Baylor, I almost didn't apply, because I heard it was a trial lawyers school. But I decided to apply anyway, because I haven't ruled out litigation as a career. But then I met an asshole the other night at dinner who went to Baylor, and now I'm wondering if all Baylor graduates are as pompous as this guy. I hope not. I mean, I like a competitive environment, but not the cutthroat type.

Hofstra has slipped this year. They are the highest school that I have gotten into yet, but they are ranked 95th, whereas DePaul is ranked just a few seats below them in Tier III. So between spending $30K to go to Hofstra and spending $17K to go to DePaul, I would think DePaul is a better choice. Maybe if Hofstra was in the top 50, it would be different.

As for where I envision myself after law school? I envisioned working at a mid-size or big law firm at first, in order to get my foot in the door, and build a good reputation, and then striking out on my own years later. I don't plan to work at a big firm forever, I know of too many attorneys who've felt they had to trade in their soul to make partner there.

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally posted by supernga

... I'll just say, "Screw it" and stick with my job. ....

Four out of five lawyers surveyed recommend this approach.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by supernga
I guess I really didn't think I'd have as many choices as I do, and getting as big as scholarships as I have gotten. I figured with my old ass of 29, I'd only get into a small law school. I guess my LSAT score really impressed them.

Just curious: what does being 29 have to do with law school admissions?

And count me among the four. It's not just the cost of law school, it's also the lost income you have to consider. Why do you want to be a lawyer? How do you plan to strike out on your own? Don't listen to people who say "a law degree can only open doors for you," and don't be swayed by people who think the motivation to go to graduate school is some higher form of motivation than working or doing something else. There are a lot of value judgments people make about another person's pursuing a graduate degree and you have to tune those out. Maybe you'll have to tune ours out, but you may notice that the people who urge you most strongly to go to law school are not lawyers.

If you will lose your motivation to go altogether by waiting a year, you probably shouldn't go at all.

I like making a lot of money and knowing that I always can, as long as I can stand doing this, but I would have done quite well had I stayed at my old company and certainly would have enjoyed my working days much more.

Don't get me wrong, I like my job, and my practice area, but law school really wasn't necessary for me to succeed, and if I had lost motivation to go, that would have been just fine, too. The real reason I went is I didn't know what the hell else to do with myself at the moment. My calculus is a bit different from yours because my law school has excellent placement in my city even for the non-stars. Essentially, there was cost for me, but no risk. You are facing both high risk and high cost.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by supernga
Hi Chicagoans!



I am planning on going to law school this fall. However, as you may know, the options are stressful. You see, I got accepted into NIU on a full tuition plus $300 monthly stipend. But it is a smaller school, and I'm not sure how hard it will be to get a job back in TX after I graduate. I also got accepted into DePaul, and I am a lot more excited about DePaul than I am about NIU. However, DePaul is only giving me a $10K, which does not cover the $27K tuition. I also got accepted into Hofstra, on no scholarship, and St. Mary's and TX Wesleyan on very little scholarship, and am on the waiting list for UH. My question is: Is it better to go to the highest ranking school on no scholarship and owe out of the wazzoo in loans; go to a good school on substantial scholarship and still owe money, because it's in a very expensive city; go to a Tier IV on a full ride; or go to a Tier IV school in TX, because that's where I plan to practice.

I've asked many people about this, and everyone has given me a different answer. I figured since you are practicing lawyers in Chicago, you would be familiar with NIU and DePaul and their reputations. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

If you want to practice here in Texas, you should go to school here in Texas unless it's a Tier 1 school you've chosen to attend instead.

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen
Four out of five lawyers surveyed recommend this approach.

Yeah, if I had only stayed at the beer distributor I coulda been working the register by now. Fuck.

You think I'm joking.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by ironweed
Yeah, if I had only stayed at the beer distributor I coulda been working the register by now. Fuck.

You think I'm joking.

beer distributor = excellent tickets to sporting events.

every job has its perks. not that I've spent a lot of time figuring out the perks of garbage man, so don't test me.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
beer distributor = excellent tickets to sporting events.

every job has its perks. not that I've spent a lot of time figuring out the perks of garbage man, so don't test me.

I'm good friends with the Coors distributor here in Houston. He does very, very well.

Too bad I don't drink his product.

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I'm good friends with the Coors distributor here in Houston. He does very, very well.

Too bad I don't drink his product.

Is that in code? Seems like a mixed message.