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Old 08-03-2015, 02:30 PM   #721
ThurgreedMarshall
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
What I think is more likely is that (a) different gauges give different readings, as the Wells Report says (although it just picks the readings least favorable to Brady), and (b) Brady likes his balls less inflated, and made sure the equipment guys knew that, and while he may not have told them to break the rules, they were more interested in keeping him happy than in strict compliance with the NFL rules.

Unless I missing something, which is possible, I think the reason you think Brady was engaged in huge cheating is the NFL's and/or Colts' leak to Mortensen and his story -- false, but repeated widely and unrebutted by the NFL, and so very successful in creating the narrative that has followed.
I think the different gauges giving different readings, all of which were below regulation is significant. I think the text messages which seem to make it clear that Brady expected his guys to deflate balls and rewarded them for doing so (and I don't understand why a reward would be necessary if they were simply doing their jobs and staying within the regulation) may also be an issue. I think the guy joking that he's not going to ESPN yet has something to do with it. There's surely other shit I forgot that adds to it.

While I am certainly not on the NFL's side, I think you eat up whatever the Patriots say.

TM

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Old 08-03-2015, 02:43 PM   #722
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I think the different gauges giving different readings, all of which were below regulation is significant.
The Patriots say, again and again, that the air pressure in most of the balls is consistent with what you would expect if they were measured with the gauge the referee says he remembers using (but Wells decides for no apparent reason that he did not use) and then taken out in the cold for the first half. I know most of what I know about this subject from stuff that other people have linked to on this board, but with that caveat I have not seen anything that proves they are wrong.

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I think the text messages which seem to make it clear that Brady expected his guys to deflate balls and rewarded them for doing so...
IIRC, The text messages are equally consistent with the understanding that Brady likes his balls at the legal minimum. Unless you read only a couple of the many, many text messages, and read them with the assumption in mind that Brady was cheating.

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...(and I don't understand why a reward would be necessary if they were simply doing their jobs and staying within the regulation).
In National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, the boss's view is that no reward (sorry, Christmas bonus) is necessary for people who are simply doing their jobs, and obviously everyone else thinks that Clark Griswold got the shaft.

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While I am certainly not on the NFL's side, I think you eat up whatever the Patriots say.
I certainly think it is possible that some Pats employees did things that resulted in the first half of the AFC Championship being played with some balls that were below the legal limit, but the suggestion that this was the result of a conspiracy that Brady and the team were in on strikes me as far-fetched, notwithstanding that obvious efforts of the NFL and the Colts to tar them. Of course everyone thinks the Patriots and Brady did it. That's what the NFL and the Colts were trying to accomplish.
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Old 08-03-2015, 03:18 PM   #723
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
The Patriots say, again and again, that the air pressure in most of the balls is consistent with what you would expect if they were measured with the gauge the referee says he remembers using (but Wells decides for no apparent reason that he did not use) and then taken out in the cold for the first half. I know most of what I know about this subject from stuff that other people have linked to on this board, but with that caveat I have not seen anything that proves they are wrong.
No. There were two different readings taken by two different refs. The Patriots focus on one of the ref's readings and rely heavily on the one statement he made about his "best" recollection. They outright reject everything else. Either way, I do not believe their take on how much the ball deflates naturally over the course of one half of football, considering the guy drawing that conclusion gets funding from Kraft.*

Also, I don't give a shit what the Patriots say again and again.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
IIRC, The text messages are equally consistent with the understanding that Brady likes his balls at the legal minimum. Unless you read only a couple of the many, many text messages, and read them with the assumption in mind that Brady was cheating.
You recall exactly the way I expect you would--heavily in favor of the Patriots. I'd ask you to go read them again in as neutral a way as possible, but I don't think you're capable.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
In National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, the boss's view is that no reward (sorry, Christmas bonus) is necessary for people who are simply doing their jobs, and obviously everyone else thinks that Clark Griswold got the shaft.
Good one. In Trading Places, at the expense of Louis' career, reputation, safety, and personal and professional relationships, the Dukes decided to find out if nature or nurture was the cause of great success. We all thought Louis got the shaft.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I certainly think it is possible that some Pats employees did things that resulted in the first half of the AFC Championship being played with some balls that were below the legal limit, but the suggestion that this was the result of a conspiracy that Brady and the team were in on strikes me as far-fetched, notwithstanding that obvious efforts of the NFL and the Colts to tar them. Of course everyone thinks the Patriots and Brady did it. That's what the NFL and the Colts were trying to accomplish.
Why? Why were they trying to accomplish that?

By the way, let's use this as a jump-off on the use of the word, "conspiracy." This is everyone's favorite word to make a spoken or unspoken agreement seem completely ludicrous. In law school we learned that a conspiracy can exist through something as small as a wink or a nod. Maybe there was a conspiracy among three people here (Brady and the guys who work his footballs). If there was, it sure doesn't sound ludicrous to me. But even if there was no outright, spoken conspiracy and Brady simply looked the other way when he knew his guys were breaking the rules to please him, then screw Brady just as much.

I think there was an unspoken understanding that Brady's guys would deflate as much as possible based on their interactions with Brady. Brady knew that his guys were doing it and he could tell whenever he picked one up. He knew the rules were being broken, but considered the rule stupid and one the NFL really didn't care much about. Then all of a sudden it did, and he knew he was in deep shit. He gave up text messages to the League that wouldn't show wrongdoing. and he probably discussed it (including by text) with people not working for the team. He didn't want to be asked for those, so he destroyed his phone.

It's unfair for the NFL to act like he was destroying evidence when they didn't ask for it. Yes. It's unfortunate for the Patriots that this happened in a year where Goodell already looks so fucking bad when it comes to discipline because now Goodell has to punish somebody, look like he's in control, and he needs a win desperately. Absolutely. It's also ridiculous that Goodell gets to review his own decisions and leaks info that makes Brady and the Patriots look bad. Sure. But at the very least, Brady was knowingly using underinflated balls and he knew where they were coming from.

TM

* http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/e...ner-bob-kraft/

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Old 08-03-2015, 04:15 PM   #725
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
No. There were two different readings taken by two different refs. The Patriots focus on one of the ref's readings and rely heavily on the one statement he made about his "best" recollection.
Sure. Because if the referee's best recollection about which gauge he used is correct, then there just isn't that much of an issue.

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Either way, I do not believe their take on how much the ball deflates naturally over the course of one half of football, considering the guy drawing that conclusion gets funding from Kraft.
Likewise, one could reject everything in the Wells Report because he was paid by the league.

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You recall exactly the way I expect you would--heavily in favor of the Patriots. I'd ask you to go read them again in as neutral a way as possible, but I don't think you're capable.
And you react the way I expect a NY sports fan would, but I guess I have a little more respect for your capabilities. I have done my share of investigations where I had to wade through a mess of documents. If all you know is what Mortensen reported and then you see those texts, you think, sure Brady is guilty as sin. But if you know that what Mortensen reported is wrong and that the NFL has been happy to let people have the wrong impression, and you know that they saw a lot of text messages and that those are the best they have, then you're less impressed. Or I am, anyway. They are far from a smoking gun.

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Why? Why were they trying to accomplish that?
With the Colts, I think it's obvious, and it seems to me that some of the leaks could have been from the Colts. From the NFL, it's less obvious. I am inclined to think that the NFL is not acting monolithically, and that there are people within the league who are acting for their own reasons. But I can't really explain, and on some level I am baffled by some of what they have done.

Quote:
By the way, let's use this as a jump-off on the use of the word, "conspiracy." This is everyone's favorite word to make a spoken or unspoken agreement seem completely ludicrous. In law school we learned that a conspiracy can exist through something as small as a wink or a nod. Maybe there was a conspiracy among three people here (Brady and the guys who work his footballs). If there was, it sure doesn't sound ludicrous to me. But even if there was no outright, spoken conspiracy and Brady simply looked the other way when he knew his guys were breaking the rules to please him, then screw Brady just as much.
In law school we learned that prosecutors think that way, and that if they can get a jury to convict someone on that sort of evidence, judges won't get in the way. Obviously, Burger and I both work in areas of law where these issues are pretty big. I meant to use the word in the way that an ordinary person would use, not as a lawyer.

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I think there was an unspoken understanding that Brady's guys would deflate as much as possible based on their interactions with Brady. Brady knew that his guys were doing it and he could tell whenever he picked one up.
I don't think Brady can pick up a football and tell you whether it is legal or not, but otherwise I'm with you. The person I've discussed this with has thirty years experience in professional soccer, fwiw.

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He knew the rules were being broken,
I don't see this, but whatever.

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but considered the rule stupid and one the NFL really didn't care much about. Then all of a sudden it did, and he knew he was in deep shit. He gave up text messages to the League that wouldn't show wrongdoing. and he probably discussed it (including by text) with people not working for the team. He didn't want to be asked for those, so he destroyed his phone.
Or, he never asked anyone to break the rules, doesn't feel that he is responsible for policing what the team does, and cooperated to a considerable extent with an investigation that, as it turns out, was more interested in whacking him to make Goodell appear tough than it was in finding the truth.

I don't think I know what actually happened, and I don't think the NFL does, either. When I worked for the government, I thought it was my job to only bring charges when I really believed they were well founded and that I could convince a court or jury. So that's my prior. Goodell is playing a different game.
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:34 PM   #726
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Sure. Because if the referee's best recollection about which gauge he used is correct, then there just isn't that much of an issue.



Likewise, one could reject everything in the Wells Report because he was paid by the league.



And you react the way I expect a NY sports fan would, but I guess I have a little more respect for your capabilities. I have done my share of investigations where I had to wade through a mess of documents. If all you know is what Mortensen reported and then you see those texts, you think, sure Brady is guilty as sin. But if you know that what Mortensen reported is wrong and that the NFL has been happy to let people have the wrong impression, and you know that they saw a lot of text messages and that those are the best they have, then you're less impressed. Or I am, anyway. They are far from a smoking gun.



With the Colts, I think it's obvious, and it seems to me that some of the leaks could have been from the Colts. From the NFL, it's less obvious. I am inclined to think that the NFL is not acting monolithically, and that there are people within the league who are acting for their own reasons. But I can't really explain, and on some level I am baffled by some of what they have done.



In law school we learned that prosecutors think that way, and that if they can get a jury to convict someone on that sort of evidence, judges won't get in the way. Obviously, Burger and I both work in areas of law where these issues are pretty big. I meant to use the word in the way that an ordinary person would use, not as a lawyer.



I don't think Brady can pick up a football and tell you whether it is legal or not, but otherwise I'm with you. The person I've discussed this with has thirty years experience in professional soccer, fwiw.



I don't see this, but whatever.



Or, he never asked anyone to break the rules, doesn't feel that he is responsible for policing what the team does, and cooperated to a considerable extent with an investigation that, as it turns out, was more interested in whacking him to make Goodell appear tough than it was in finding the truth.

I don't think I know what actually happened, and I don't think the NFL does, either. When I worked for the government, I thought it was my job to only bring charges when I really believed they were well founded and that I could convince a court or jury. So that's my prior. Goodell is playing a different game.
Of course you understand that the standard is not the same as what you're used to, but I like that you're trying to force this issue into that hole even though you surely recognize Wells used the magic words "more likely than not" for very specific reasons.

And given the fact that you keep repeating your litigation credentials as if they mean anything, the fact that you just threw in your friend's 30 years of professional soccer experience (which caused my eyes to roll in around in my head uncontrollably like a fucking slot machine), and based on a lot of the other garbage in this post, I'd rather discuss this with Burger, who has your proxy anyway, I'm sure.

TM
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:53 PM   #727
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Of course you understand that the standard is not the same as what you're used to, but I like that you're trying to force this issue into that hole even though you surely recognize Wells used the magic words "more likely than not" for very specific reasons.
No, I did civil cases.

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And given the fact that you keep repeating your litigation credentials as if they mean anything, the fact that you just threw in your friend's 30 years of professional soccer experience (which caused my eyes to roll in around in my head uncontrollably like a fucking slot machine), and based on a lot of the other garbage in this post, I'd rather discuss this with Burger, who has your proxy anyway, I'm sure.
OK.
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Old 08-03-2015, 05:14 PM   #728
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Re: All the LOLs!

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From the NFL, it's less obvious. I am inclined to think that the NFL is not acting monolithically, and that there are people within the league who are acting for their own reasons. But I can't really explain, and on some level I am baffled by some of what they have done.
That the initial leak to Mortenson came from a former Jets employee (Mike Kensil) gives me some idea of an explanation. That this same office denied having received the Ray Rice tape despite having it gives me a way to confirm that explanation.
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Old 08-03-2015, 05:28 PM   #729
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Re: All the LOLs!

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That the initial leak to Mortenson came from a former Jets employee (Mike Kensil) gives me some idea of an explanation. That this same office denied having received the Ray Rice tape despite having it gives me a way to confirm that explanation.
Come on. You're giving a report from "the leading voice of the Patriots" confirmed factual treatment? http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...s-main-source/

You Boston guys are out there.

TM
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Old 08-03-2015, 05:43 PM   #730
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Come on. You're giving a report from "the leading voice of the Patriots" confirmed factual treatment? http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...s-main-source/

You Boston guys are out there.
The NFL now has me convinced you can't believe anyone in football.
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Old 08-03-2015, 09:57 PM   #731
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Re: All the LOLs!

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The NFL now has me convinced you can't believe anyone in football.
so you'll no longer parrot Boston slappies like Mike Florio, or Burger?
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Old 08-04-2015, 08:53 AM   #732
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Re: All the LOLs!

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Come on. You're giving a report from "the leading voice of the Patriots" confirmed factual treatment? http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...s-main-source/

You Boston guys are out there.

TM
Hahaha - that's rich. In a case that's about mischaracterized facts, innuendo and assumptions of winks and nods, you challenge this report as biased? Even if it's not Kensil who's behind it, clearly the info came from the NFL offices, was inaccurate, and hasn't been retracted other than implicitly by the "independent" Wells report.
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:06 AM   #733
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Re: All the LOLs!

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so you'll no longer parrot Boston slappies like Mike Florio, or Burger?
What's funny is that for the first couple of months Florio ran with the story like it was the greatest scoop and scandal, until he started looking at the facts.
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Old 08-04-2015, 09:42 AM   #734
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Re: All the LOLs!

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You Ex-Boston guys are out there.

TM
Fixed that for you.
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Old 08-04-2015, 10:17 AM   #735
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Bring your kiddies, bring your wife.

Who cares about the Patriots? The Mets* are in first place in August! Bartolo!

*My iPhone wanted to autocorrect this to "Meta" which amuses me greatly.
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