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Old 05-03-2017, 12:45 PM   #31
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I'm not downplaying the seriousness of misogyny. But we're engaged in conversation regarding asteroids at the cost of neglecting a planet sized pile of economic problems and environmental concerns barreling toward us.
You really need to take a step back and get some perspective, Chicken Little.

The asteroid you're warning about hit 20+ years ago. So far we've been generally okay weathering the ripple effects.

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Maybe it's time we wake up and stop allowing the tail (real, but still secondary social issues) to stop wagging the dog in terms of policy debate?
Yes, super secondary to the white, straight, cis guy.

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(and we stop dithering around tired talking-point solutions like 'education,' and directly address automation)
First we smash the looms.

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Then we get to civil rights - most notably the emergence of a police state within our borders;
If only everyone cared enough to vote for the candidate who at least wasn't promising to make it worse...

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Next on to the environmental crisis (anyone else notice summer came two months early this year?)
If only everyone cared enough to vote for the candidate who at least wasn't promising to make it worse...

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Then on to privacy rights, as in the right not to be spied on by domestic agencies,
If only everyone cared enough to vote for the candidate who at least wasn't promising to make it worse...

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and a woman's absolute right to make all decisions regarding her body AND any fetus within it.
If only everyone cared enough to vote for the candidate who at least wasn't promising to make it worse...

And yes, I know, you think Hillary wasn't going to make any of those things actually better (I think we can all agree that you're probably mainly wrong), but again, the other guy was explicitly promising to move in the opposite direction on these things.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:21 PM   #32
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
We need to prioritize a bit better in this country. We allow ourselves to be divided and conquered on so many secondary matters and rarely discuss the really serious shit.
But the email!
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:38 PM   #33
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Old 05-03-2017, 02:24 PM   #34
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
That's disheartening, as "automation" should hold that title by many multiples of its closest challenger.

I'm not downplaying the seriousness of misogyny. But we're engaged in conversation regarding asteroids at the cost of neglecting a planet sized pile of economic problems and environmental concerns barreling toward us.

Maybe it's time we wake up and stop allowing the tail (real, but still secondary social issues) to stop wagging the dog in terms of policy debate? Maybe use Maslow's Hierarchy as a start:

First we talk economics, which controls everything (and we stop dithering around tired talking-point solutions like 'education,' and directly address automation);
Then we get to civil rights - most notably the emergence of a police state within our borders;
Next on to the environmental crisis (anyone else notice summer came two months early this year?);
Then on to privacy rights, as in the right not to be spied on by domestic agencies, and a woman's absolute right to make all decisions regarding her body AND any fetus within it.

After we tear through all of those, I think it's time to debate the crisis of flyover state misogynists. I'm not saying it isn't problem. I'm saying it appears to me, that if I wanted to divide and conquer people, and keep them from the discussing the more immediate and dire issues, it's the kind of subject I'd encourage the masses to argue.

We need to prioritize a bit better in this country. We allow ourselves to be divided and conquered on so many secondary matters and rarely discuss the really serious shit. Seeing so much ink spilled on the issues lower down the ladder of importance reminds me of listening to gold bugs. One can't help thinking, "If the possible events of which you're so concerned occur, gold won't be worth shit... the currency will be seeds and bullets." If we don't address automation and the environment, in the not too distant future, debating whether a head of state acquired that position via sexism or unfairness of the media will be the most decadent of parlor conversations.
Actually, misogyny is absolutely critical for understanding economic problems in this country.

Right now, the most significant constraint on the growth of the tech industry is availability of talent, and the biggest reason tech companies take good jobs abroad is not to find cheap labor but to find good engineers and scientists. China's production of engineers is mind-boggling.

In the US, I don't think we're going to significantly increase the number of white boys who go for tech or science careers. Huge numbers of them have the opportunity and support (100% in most suburban areas), and choose to do something else.

The largest untapped source of tech talent inside the US right now is girls who are being dissuaded from pursuing tech careers by misogyny. That number is huge. Watching what my daughter has to deal with in her engineer training you get a good sense of how many barriers there are. You want lower immigration? Train young girls in science.

The second largest untapped source of tech talent inside the US is African American and Hispanic, but that's not about misogyny, that's something else.
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Old 05-03-2017, 02:59 PM   #35
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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The asteroid you're warning about hit 20+ years ago. So far we've been generally okay weathering the ripple effects.
To what exactly are you referring? I recall the mid 90s being pretty glassy seas.

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Yes, super secondary to the white, straight, cis guy.
Did you just drop "cis" on me? Seriously?

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First we smash the looms.
No. First we discuss guaranteed income. Or at least discuss something about automation. It's been the 800 lb gorilla for a decade now, and yet everyone avoids constructive conversation regarding it. "Oh, let's just avoid that... It can't be fixed, or alternatively, it'll go away... Like that hysteria over the environment. Thank God we ignored that."

Quote:
And yes, I know, you think Hillary wasn't going to make any of those things actually better (I think we can all agree that you're probably mainly wrong), but again, the other guy was explicitly promising to move in the opposite direction on these things.
If we're too dumb to respond to anything until it's a horrific crisis, and that is clearly the case, perhaps he's that total fucking train wreck we've needed all this time...
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:11 PM   #36
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Actually, misogyny is absolutely critical for understanding economic problems in this country.

Right now, the most significant constraint on the growth of the tech industry is availability of talent, and the biggest reason tech companies take good jobs abroad is not to find cheap labor but to find good engineers and scientists. China's production of engineers is mind-boggling.

In the US, I don't think we're going to significantly increase the number of white boys who go for tech or science careers. Huge numbers of them have the opportunity and support (100% in most suburban areas), and choose to do something else.

The largest untapped source of tech talent inside the US right now is girls who are being dissuaded from pursuing tech careers by misogyny. That number is huge. Watching what my daughter has to deal with in her engineer training you get a good sense of how many barriers there are. You want lower immigration? Train young girls in science.

The second largest untapped source of tech talent inside the US is African American and Hispanic, but that's not about misogyny, that's something else.
Anything hampering innovation is a serious problem. But misogyny in tech is a narrow phenomenon. (I also don't want to lower immigration. That'd really fuck innovation.)

It just seems that the sooner we get ahead of planning for automation, the more we might be able to harness it for progress, rather than view it as some enemy of workers.

Why not have the conversation, nationally, loudly, about how we can move forward toward Keynes' 15 hour workweek? Why is that only the subject of TED talks, or weirdos like us? Are we afraid that people might not be receptive to the idea of working 1/4 what they do right now? That there's a majority of people anywhere in the world who'd say, "I do not wish to hear about how I might work less and spend more time with my family! I do not want to spend more of my time in leisure, thank you very much... I prefer to have technology continue enslaving me and causing me to work nearly around the clock instead of putting it to use for me." A person of such demented mindset would be committed!

ETA: We have this really dumb view that creativity and great developments, great art, etc. accrue from people putting in endless hours. (Fuck you very much, Malcolm Gladwell's 10k Hr. Rule.) Of course you have to work to see good results. But a harried, multitasking, endlessly-on-call worker is not a fount of innovation. He's a guy treading water. His juices are spent, and he's not recharging enough to have necessary insights to create anything innovative (excellent proof is the LSD micro-dosing going on in Silicon Valley... if you need to drop a quarter hit of acid to find your creative and productive self, you're in a malfunctioning system [not that there's anything wrong with taking hallucinogens, which everyone should be required to do for the benefit of society generally]).

If we can sleep, if we can slow down from time to time... if we can be at peace for just a bit of time every day, we can do in 15 minutes what our burned-out selves take 2 hrs to complete. And the scientific proof of what happens to a mind absorbing too much short bit information and never sleeping is right before us: Trump.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:14 PM   #37
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Did you just drop "cis" on me? Seriously?
I recall suggesting several years ago that I should pitch a remake of "the Odd Couple" starring TM and someone else.*

Forget that nonsense (sorry TM) - I would happily tune into premium cable each week to watch the wacky hijinx of Sebby and Young Adder.

*It may have even been Sebby.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:41 PM   #38
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Anything hampering innovation is a serious problem. But misogyny in tech is a narrow phenomenon.

There is no more important issue in tech today.

The emergence of the Bro-Cos like Uber is just one symptom of the problem. But at the end of the day, women are barely breaking out of single digits in the tech workforce.

That loss of talent is mind-boggling in a talent deprived industry.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:44 PM   #39
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Actually, misogyny is absolutely critical for understanding economic problems in this country.

Right now, the most significant constraint on the growth of the tech industry is availability of talent, and the biggest reason tech companies take good jobs abroad is not to find cheap labor but to find good engineers and scientists. China's production of engineers is mind-boggling.

In the US, I don't think we're going to significantly increase the number of white boys who go for tech or science careers. Huge numbers of them have the opportunity and support (100% in most suburban areas), and choose to do something else.

The largest untapped source of tech talent inside the US right now is girls who are being dissuaded from pursuing tech careers by misogyny. That number is huge. Watching what my daughter has to deal with in her engineer training you get a good sense of how many barriers there are. You want lower immigration? Train young girls in science.

The second largest untapped source of tech talent inside the US is African American and Hispanic, but that's not about misogyny, that's something else.
It goes the other way too. Some of the fastest job growth areas have been traditionally "female" and a lot of men won't take them or train for them. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/u...-by-women.html
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:54 PM   #40
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
First we talk economics, which controls everything (and we stop dithering around tired talking-point solutions like 'education,' and directly address automation);
Then we get to civil rights - most notably the emergence of a police state within our borders;
Next on to the environmental crisis (anyone else notice summer came two months early this year?);
Then on to privacy rights, as in the right not to be spied on by domestic agencies, and a woman's absolute right to make all decisions regarding her body AND any fetus within it.
Ah. I'm glad I have this handy list of what my priorities should be. Do you have a laminated version?

FoH.

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Old 05-03-2017, 04:05 PM   #41
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
That's disheartening, as "automation" should hold that title by many multiples of its closest challenger.

I'm not downplaying the seriousness of misogyny. But we're engaged in conversation regarding asteroids at the cost of neglecting a planet sized pile of economic problems and environmental concerns barreling toward us.

Maybe it's time we wake up and stop allowing the tail (real, but still secondary social issues) to stop wagging the dog in terms of policy debate? Maybe use Maslow's Hierarchy as a start:

First we talk economics, which controls everything (and we stop dithering around tired talking-point solutions like 'education,' and directly address automation);
Then we get to civil rights - most notably the emergence of a police state within our borders;
Next on to the environmental crisis (anyone else notice summer came two months early this year?);
Then on to privacy rights, as in the right not to be spied on by domestic agencies, and a woman's absolute right to make all decisions regarding her body AND any fetus within it.

After we tear through all of those, I think it's time to debate the crisis of flyover state misogynists. I'm not saying it isn't problem. I'm saying it appears to me, that if I wanted to divide and conquer people, and keep them from the discussing the more immediate and dire issues, it's the kind of subject I'd encourage the masses to argue.

We need to prioritize a bit better in this country. We allow ourselves to be divided and conquered on so many secondary matters and rarely discuss the really serious shit. Seeing so much ink spilled on the issues lower down the ladder of importance reminds me of listening to gold bugs. One can't help thinking, "If the possible events of which you're so concerned occur, gold won't be worth shit... the currency will be seeds and bullets." If we don't address automation and the environment, in the not too distant future, debating whether a head of state acquired that position via sexism or unfairness of the media will be the most decadent of parlor conversations.
You supremely arrogant fuck. You seriously believe you have the omniscience and infallible wisdom to preach to fucking EVERYBODY about what their priorities and concerns should be? Hey mom who lost her gay son to anti-gay violence -- stop your incessant complaining, you are way down the priority chain. Black mom who lost her son to police violence -- good news, you're priority #2! The absolute crazy thing is that you actually pay lip service to how horrible it is that the elite intellectuals are always telling the masses how to think and what to care about. I'm not even going to comment on you relegating misogyny to a fringe problem in flyover land. That is more substantive response than this post deserves.

Here is your number one priority for this board -- bringing the funk. Skull Snaps. "Trespassin'." The Daily Dose:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QggRfHtFpw
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Old 05-03-2017, 04:10 PM   #42
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
To what exactly are you referring?
I'm referring to automation of manufacturing being an ongoing process (which probably actually dates to the 1970s), not some sudden shock we won't be able to handle.

Remember not that long ago when 3D printing was going to change everything? Has it? Nope.

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I recall the mid 90s being pretty glassy seas.
Yes, that's my point.

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Did you just drop "cis" on me? Seriously?
Are you really going to go full transphobia? Seriously? (Or alternatively, you're coming out as trans, in which case, I support you).

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First we discuss guaranteed income.
Lets do it! You know who isn't going to? The people you voted for. Also, the people who got elected that you couldn't be bothered to vote against.

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It's been the 800 lb gorilla for a decade now
And yet we're not in an economic catastrophe!
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Old 05-03-2017, 04:20 PM   #43
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan View Post
It goes the other way too. Some of the fastest job growth areas have been traditionally "female" and a lot of men won't take them or train for them. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/u...-by-women.html
Really excellent and interesting point.

Going off to think for a while.
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Old 05-03-2017, 04:22 PM   #44
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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You supremely arrogant fuck. You seriously believe you have the omniscience and infallible wisdom to preach to fucking EVERYBODY about what their priorities and concerns should be?
Yeah, it was like this time last year when I was in a room full of Bernie Bros debating politics and they kept shushing the two women in the room because they didn't realize what was important.

My wife nearly scalped a couple brother in laws that day, and it would have been entirely justified.

But, flower, do you mind if I hug you?
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Old 05-03-2017, 04:30 PM   #45
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Yeah, it was like this time last year when I was in a room full of Bernie Bros debating politics and they kept shushing the two women in the room because they didn't realize what was important.

My wife nearly scalped a couple brother in laws that day, and it would have been entirely justified.

But, flower, do you mind if I hug you?
Virtual cyber e-hugs only.
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