Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Your spin. I accuse both the Right and the Left of using a meat cleaver where a scalpel is warranted.

Yes, you are correct, however. In doing so, I am generalizing a bit myself.

I don't have serious sympathies about candidates or parties. I disliked certain things about Obama and liked others. I dislike most things about Trump, but can see a few decent things (most accidental).

It only seems I'm being overly-critical of the Left because almost everyone here shares the same Left-leaning sympathies. Hank and Less might be the only ones currently posting who hold some contrarian opinions on the current political situation.

This place is Left. That cannot be argued.

I'm not trolling. I sincerely believe we should assess all things in a manner where one credits the useful and decries the bad. My party versus yours, my identity versus yours... These aren't useful. Looking at things with a purely relativist and subjective eye, identifying with nothing but what you think are good policies, and resisting only what's bad -- this is a much more productive way to approach everything.

You are not hearing my point. Just yesterday, you objected to the idea that Jews generally vote for Democrats. You then posted about how "the Left" was reacting to the Mueller investigation. "This place is Left." So, obviously, the point of your post about Mueller was to make us (because we are Left) defend or reject the Mueller/Trump masturbation. That was trolling. You were not "sincerely assessing things in a manner where you credited the useful and decried the bad." You were saying things about "the Left" to provoke a reaction. I agree with you that there are people on the Left who say stupid things. But you weren't looking for agreement.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

This place is Left. That cannot be argued.

.

This place is technocratic center left. Heck, we don't even have a Berner much less any real leftists.

After all, lately you've been the strongest voice for big government here.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

the tax bill

And IRS cannot add more that 7 or 8 rules to implement it, due to Trump executive branch wide restriction of new rules. drop 2 old to write 1 new.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

It's easy for me to identify an policy position I cross the aisle on, which is trade. I'm all for TPP, which passed with more Republican votes than Democratic, and I think the labor movement's focus on protectionism rather than internationalism (and cultivating unions abroad as part of trade deals especially) is completely screwed up. This is a regular debate in my family.

There have been other issues - Romneycare is a good example at a state level - where I've strongly backed bipartisan initiatives. When Bush was around I more than once expressed the view that he was someone to work with on immigration issues.

BUT , the tax bill is one of the most fucked-up, unprofessional, poorly thought out, half-assed, ideologically motivated pieces of legislation ever voted on, let alone passed, by Congress. Sure, there will be some stimulus resulting from dropping $1.5 trillion into the economy (which will come out of federal borrowing), but there were 20 ways to make that have a greater impact (just cutting a check for $5,000 per person and sending it to everyone in the country, man woman or child, would have had more stimulus by far) and that debt will be a long-term drag. Plus, the regionalism of it is deeply disturbing - the idea of trying to spur dead or dying industries with tax incentives while hamstringing expanding ones isn't Republican or Democratic, it's Moronic. A good part of the problem stems from the fact that no thought went into the bill from Congress - it's a cut and paste of K street proposals, not a bill crafted through a process of hearing and discussion. There was more discussion of it on this board than in Congress. No tax bill has ever been passed without a hearing process.

There are intelligent Republican tax bills that could have been proposed. If Sebby thinks that piece of shit has anything to say for itself, he's got ideological blinders WAYYYY worse than anyone else posting here.

I actually don't disagree with any of that. Those parts, and many more, of the bill are awful. I think I've written as much, here.

However, the doubling of the standard deduction does help certain people in the rental market. (Granted, Trump probably did this to assist Steve Schwarzman, who's gobbled up loads of rental properties through Blackstone. But nevertheless, the impact is positive.)

Also, expensing 100% of qualified property, while yes, a sugar rush of sorts, is a decent measure.

And the 20% pass through deduction and lowered corporate rate do encourage small business spending. But on balance, yes, they are deeply contrived loopholes for massive avoidance, and they deliver pennies to most and truckloads of gain to the .00001. But any gain is still a gain.

I completely agree that we'd do better to just give every poor to modest income American a check for $5,000.00. I said the same about the stimulus in 2009.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You are not hearing my point. Just yesterday, you objected to the idea that Jews generally vote for Democrats. You then posted about how "the Left" was reacting to the Mueller investigation. "This place is Left." So, obviously, the point of your post about Mueller was to make us (because we are Left) defend or reject the Mueller/Trump masturbation. That was trolling. You were not "sincerely assessing things in a manner where you credited the useful and decried the bad." You were saying things about "the Left" to provoke a reaction. I agree with you that there are people on the Left who say stupid things. But you weren't looking for agreement.

My point wasn't to make you accept or reject anything. My point, which I'll reiterate here, is that fixation on the Mueller thing is wasted energy and counterproductive.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

I'm sick of hearing about how politics is tribal. Conservatives are a minority reacting to a mainstream they feel they are losing to, and they are tribal. The Left is not tribal, it's an incohesive collection of different interests. It has no single leader, no set of ties, no single goal, and no unity.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

My point wasn't to make you accept or reject anything. My point, which I'll reiterate here, is that fixation on the Mueller thing is wasted energy and counterproductive.

You might apply the analytical rigor you applied to Jewish support for Democrats when you talk about, for example, who is fixated on the Mueller thing, and how.

To your substance, I absolutely disagree. The "Mueller thing" has been the single biggest story of the last year. Trump's reaction to the investigation has affected all sorts of other issues, and has both driven him to the right and made him less effective. Whether paying attention to it is "wasted energy and counterproductive" depends, I guess, on what sorts of things you think would be a good use of energy and productive. I honestly have no idea what you're suggesting -- that we talk about something else here? That Mueller just call it a day and hang it up? That Adam Schiff agree to whatever Devin Nunes wants to do.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

And IRS cannot add more that 7 or 8 rules to implement it, due to Trump executive branch wide restriction of new rules. drop 2 old to write 1 new.

I wish I could stop laughing so I could cry.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

My point wasn't to make you accept or reject anything. My point, which I'll reiterate here, is that fixation on the Mueller thing is wasted energy and counterproductive.

What is the last federal political investigation that resulted in four indictments with two guilty pleas?

Without commenting at all on where it is going in the future, there's already more "there" there than anything I can think of in a long, long time.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I'm sick of hearing about how politics is tribal. Conservatives are a minority reacting to a mainstream they feel they are losing to, and they are tribal. The Left is not tribal, it's an incohesive collection of different interests. It has no single leader, no set of ties, no single goal, and no unity.

Conservatives want it tribal, because they don't want to talk about their positions. They do not hold water.

That's why we don't have hearings any more.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Have you ever stopped for a second and thought that the people on this board think about each and every policy issue and have come to a conclusion about where they stand on the merits of the policy?

Not since Trump. Whatever policy he floats appears to be loathsome until proven benign, or perhaps even decent. There was a similar thing with Bush. And Obama (with Slave, when he used to post here).

Has it occurred to you that no one on this board supports Democratic policies that they disagree with just because they're Democratic in origin? Has it occurred to you that we actually disagree with policies Republicans consistently favor because we think they are incorrect--not because they are Republican ideas, but because they do not work?

I don't agree with that. When ideas are discussed here, there's a pile-on effect and the arguments become quite blunt.

Your tax example is a good one. You think there is some good in it. I disagree because it robs us of revenue we need to maintain safety nets, rebuild infrastructure, fund disaster relief, etc.

You realize doubling the standard deduction helps a lot of modest income people who are in the rental market.

And capping the SALT and mortgage interest deductions, although petulant and fucked up measures, do take from the affluent and redistribute to the middle class.

The short term benefits are crumbs in the hands of middle class people and huge 4 tiered cakes for the rich.

True. But what you and I see as crumbs are real dollars to the lower middle class.

So, no. I don't agree that there are beneficial aspects to the tax bill.

Maybe now you do.

And I think there's going to have to be a Wisconsin-style reckoning at some point to deal with how we are currently underfunding the government.

I don't follow that.

Aside from that, I do not agree with the Republican/conservative philosophy of governing. That doesn't mean I am a blind follower and agree with everything Democrats want to do or have done. But if you can articulate a Republican policy position on anything that I agree with, I will be surprised. And that's because of the substance of those policies.

I just offered one. What would be your problem with doubling the standard deduction and capping mortgage interest deductions? (I'd geographically adjust the latter to stop punishing people in NY/CA/CT/NJ as the current cap does.)

You are not some sage, above-it-all, disinterested, neutral party who has the ability to see how blind everyone else is.

I never said I was. But I am pretty much the only person who disagrees with anyone here on this stuff.

You're just a guy who agrees with Republicans on their approach to policy sometimes and agree with Democrats on others.

I happily accept that description.

You are no more thoughtful than anyone else on this board. In fact, your tendency to overlook the many very thoughtful posts which actually analyze Republican (and Democratic) positions as some automatic, unthinking, tribal response is small-minded and offensive.

If you scan back to the days of Bush, I'd surmise you'll see a 10 to 1 ratio of "Invective toward the GOP" vs. "Favorable comment on the GOP." I'm not making it up when I say this place leans left.

The conservative on this board would be...? There is none. I'm not even a conservative.

Have I lazily generalized and ignored some thoughtful positions? Sure. Guilty. But it's damn hard not to do so.

TM[/QUOTE]

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Conservatives want it tribal, because they don't want to talk about their positions. They do not hold water.

I think that's backwards. They don't want to talk about their positions because they are tribal. This idea that you justify what you are going to do by appealing to some extrinsic notion of what makes good policy is mainstream and lefty. Conservatives decide with other conservatives behind closed doors and in their own media what they want to do, and then public talk is instrumentalist, to make it happen.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

And the 20% pass through deduction and lowered corporate rate do encourage small business spending. But on balance, yes, they are deeply contrived loopholes for massive avoidance, and they deliver pennies to most and truckloads of gain to the .00001. But any gain is still a gain.

Any gain is a gain? The words of an ideologue. There is no gain when you put in place a tax policy that makes no sense, and that pass through piece makes zero sense. You distort the economy and drive it towards unproductivity, because yo tie money up in the games instead of productive enterprise. (Make no mistake, of course, I will play those games).

Rates, of course, can always be debated; this is the rate of a party that believes individuals should bear the cost of government more than businesses; I've always thought otherwise myself, and would err in favor of lower individual and higher corporate rates. Pity no one had that discussion.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I think that's backwards. They don't want to talk about their positions because they are tribal. This idea that you justify what you are going to do by appealing to some extrinsic notion of what makes good policy is mainstream and lefty. Conservatives decide with other conservatives behind closed doors and in their own media what they want to do, and then public talk is instrumentalist, to make it happen.

Good point. It may actually be some of each: there may be some happy to use the tribal to get the positions no one would support if explained, and others who go tribal and really have no positions but the tribalism.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The conservative on this board would be...? There is none. I'm not even a conservative.

[/QUOTE]

Oh, cut the bullshit.

Of course you are.