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Old 11-09-2018, 03:09 PM   #4006
Adder
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Re: Color-blind Nationalist

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I don't see the programming element. I see people observing that blacks are often treated as second class citizens and just assuming that's how society works.
How is that not programming?

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There's no sensible white person who'll argue with the statement, "It's easier to be white, and you've all kinds of advantages over blacks."
Perhaps, but if so, there are lots of unsensible white people out there.

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Where I think the conversation goes sideways is when the suggestion is made that a white person is complicit in this inequity.
Or we white people can try to get over our fragility and accept, yeah, we are complicit. We try not to be, but we are. We do book problem harm, even when we're trying like hell to minimize it.

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But if the conversation focuses on fixing the inequity, there's no reason to get bogged down in according blame or complicity.
If we can't name the problem - that white supremacy is a system that we all participate in and those of us who are white benefit from - how can we have any conversation about how to solve it?

Those people at the Trump rallies? They think they're the victims.
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:22 PM   #4007
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Re: Color-blind Nationalist

Okay, I feel like we're getting somewhere.

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My only point was, when people profess to attempt to be colorblind, it's often not just a dodge. A lot of people really believe they can do this. They're wrong. But it's not a significantly disingenuous behavior.
I think you mean to say it's not always disingenuous behavior. That statement is correct. I gave you an example of when it is, but the whole crux of the book and my focus on this board is in addressing when it isn't disingenuous but serves as a barrier to any type of progress anyway.

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Here's an area where we differ. I don't see the programming element. I see people observing that blacks are often treated as second class citizens and just assuming that's how society works. Not all people believe the hierarchy is a just or sensible system. Most people think it is not. Most people believe life is unfair.
Again, you have broken down what I am saying into intentional vs. unintentional. I know you understand that whites enjoy "all kinds of advantages over blacks," so the fact that there just is a racial hierarchy in this country is not up for debate. Almost everything we encounter solidifies this reality.

Here's where we break from each other: Does that mean that all white people (or any people, for that matter) are sitting there thinking, "I'm at the top of this hierarchy. I want to keep it that way." No. Of course it doesn't. But here's the rub. You cannot mention the general fact that whites enjoy a certain status within this reality and give examples without whites turning it into something personal to them that says they are a bad person. At that point, we're talking about how they're not bad people, they are colorblind, they grew up rough, their families are diverse somewhere, they have black friends, their ancestors were Irish and need not apply. It is impossible to get around that and get back to how something is set up (an approach to hiring at a law firm, for example) that favors them and what we can do to change it. All time is spent confirming to said white person that they are indeed good.

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I sense, perhaps incorrectly, that you believe that most non-minorities have a hierarchy of races in their heads. That's soft white supremacy. There are people with that bizarre and twisted mindset, but not a huge number.
See above.

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Agreed 100% again. But I see no harm from striving to be colorblind. So you fail at attempting to be unrealistically decent. And that striving is not mutually exclusive with considering and addressing racism. One can attempt to be as colorblind as he can be, to hold that as an ideal, and still recognize and try to remedy racism around him in practical ways.
What I'm trying to get you to understand is that there is no such thing as colorblindism. Either you strive to not be racist or you don't. Either you have race prejudice or you don't. Either you act with racial discrimination or you don't. People say they are colorblind because it is a way (intentional or not) to not deal with actual racism. Even if you could be completely colorblind, how does that help anyone in a world built such that every business, neighborhood, school, government institution, court, police force, etc. favors one race over all others?

If I say, "Can we talk about why you gave that assignment to Chad and not me when I have more experience with that type of work and have been here longer?" and you say, "I don't see race," where does that leave me? How can we have a conversation about the reality I am facing?

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I agree with this. I can understand how it's frustrating for someone to say they strive to not see color or race. Perhaps they shouldn't say that out loud. But it's very hard for me to say that they shouldn't privately think of that as a goal because it should be the goal.
Why is colorblindness the goal? The goal is to not be racist. The goal is equity. Equality. If you have those things, what does being colorblind get anyone? You're using it as a shorthand for those things (I think). And it's getting in the way because it is impossible to be colorblind given how we are all raised and the messages we are all bombarded with from birth.

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I will read it. I'm far too invested in considering the topic not to do so, and every review of it has deemed it excellent.
Cool. I look forward to discussing.

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Again, I agree. I think the best way to approach this is to simply focus on impact. There's no sensible white person who'll argue with the statement, "It's easier to be white, and you've all kinds of advantages over blacks." That's just a fact. From there, the conversation naturally goes to, how does society start to remedy that? Where I think the conversation goes sideways is when the suggestion is made that a white person is complicit in this inequity. For a lot of white people, that's true. They take actions to protect the status quo inequity. But for a lot of white people, it's not true. They were simply lucky -- born white in a society where it helps a lot to be white.
Here is another disconnect. If I say that you are enjoying status that benefits you without taking intentionally racist action, you're saying you're simply lucky. I'm saying, "Hey! That's unfair. I would like to enjoy that kind of status too here [at work] [in school] [in court]." You say, "Dude, I'm not racist. It's not my fault you get longer sentences from judges than I do. I'm a good person. My family blah blah blah..." No need to address the difference in status anymore. You're just lucky, right? Not your problem because you aren't intentionally participating. You're just enjoying your status. Conversation over. No action taken by anyone.

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But if the conversation focuses on fixing the inequity, there's no reason to get bogged down in according blame or complicity.
This makes no sense because the only reason why the system remains the way it is, is because it benefits the dominant culture. White people don't want to give it up.

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If an honest white person sincerely engages in a conversation on how to fix the problem and learn how it feels to endure systemic racism from a black person's perspective, just focus on the solution, long and arduous as it may be.
And here's where we end. That would be great. Too bad whenever we try to get there, we can't get past the good/bad binary which is the focus of the book.

TM
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:56 PM   #4008
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Re: We are all Slave now.

How does RBG break 3 ribs in a fall? She is only 3 inches off the ground to begin with.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:29 PM   #4009
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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How does RBG break 3 ribs in a fall? She is only 3 inches off the ground to begin with.
What does Kavanaugh weigh?
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:30 PM   #4010
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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What does Kavanaugh weigh?
too soon.
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Old 11-09-2018, 05:39 PM   #4011
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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too soon.
I can't believe 3 days and I haven't seen a word about this. Coincidence, no? She's fine until his groping drunk ass comes around.
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Old 11-11-2018, 02:48 AM   #4012
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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But will you say "Long time, no see?"
Damn, I was trying to bait Adder in all his earnestness - https://reason.com/blog/2018/11/06/l...ered-offensive
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Old 11-11-2018, 06:45 AM   #4013
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Damn, I was trying to bait Adder in all his earnestness - https://reason.com/blog/2018/11/06/l...ered-offensive
I'm guessing so is the phrase I was going to use to respond "How?"
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Old 11-11-2018, 02:56 PM   #4014
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Re: Color-blind Nationalist

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I think simply stated, the idea is perhaps you and I can't necessarily see what we might be doing differently that could be harmful. Of course we don't intend harm in such cases, but would you listen to someone tell you what harm you might unintentionally do? You don't have to listen, but then you can't say you don't want to do harm, or that you do not do it. I agree complicating the issue is that everyone has a theory about what we might be doing wrong, and half might be nonsense, but that doesn't mean there can't be some education somewhere, does it?
Of course, we should never discount that there are a lot of folks who simply intend to do harm. There are plenty of conscious, intentional bigots out there these days.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:17 AM   #4015
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Damn, I was trying to bait Adder in all his earnestness - https://reason.com/blog/2018/11/06/l...ered-offensive
You have to read ridiculous things like Reason to know about these things.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:24 AM   #4016
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For Ty

You asked me for a decent outline of Lukainoff's and Haidt's book. I offered what I thought were decent ones which covered the main arguments of the book. Here's a much better one: https://quillette.com/2018/10/14/mor...oned-critique/

Pardon the framing of the piece, to the extent it responds to a less than stellar critique of the book by someone named Weigel. I think it still gets the outlined main ideas of the book across.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:33 AM   #4017
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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You have to read ridiculous things like Reason to know about these things.
Or the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/education-46146766
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:38 AM   #4018
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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too soon.
These words, "too soon"... What do they mean?
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:55 AM   #4019
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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These words, "too soon"... What do they mean?
For a Kavanaugh assulted RBG joke
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Old 11-12-2018, 12:08 PM   #4020
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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For a Kavanaugh assulted RBG joke
...Feel the breeze.
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