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Old 05-31-2018, 11:57 AM   #1036
ThurgreedMarshall
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Not Bob View Post
Dude. A functioning civil society and (mostly) following the constitution and laws are Hank’s book? And mine?

Dude.
You are wasting your fucking time. No amount of "Not everyone votes tax cuts or their wallet because some of us are invested in having a functioning government, society, world, whatever" will get through. The attitude he espouses is why we have what we have. "I vote for me. If I get a tax cut of $100 a month, the poor get fucked, and the vast majority of wealth goes up to the very rich, I'm okay with it." He doesn't really give a shit about disgusting, racist, homophobic, xenophobic, hate-filled policy because it doesn't affect him. Sure, he'll say, "Yeah, I'm against that stuff." But he doesn't really give a shit unless it affects him or his wallet directly. Until it does, Dems and Republicans are essentially the same--"invested in the status quo." He says this without really understanding or caring that one party is burning every protection for people who aren't him to the ground.

Not giving a fuck about anyone outside your manufactured isolation shell is the ultimate luxury. Save your breath.

TM

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Old 05-31-2018, 12:02 PM   #1037
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
most of the hard core nonsense comes from DU and other Bernie hives- and those sites are why Trump is president.
No. Trump is President because too many fucking (mostly white) people voted for him. Sure, idiots like Sarandon and her brain damaged following who sat it out (or anyone who voted third party) can be blamed for being stupid and contributing. But the blame sits with those who voted for this fucker.

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Mostly I just didn't want a president that tweets ugly at 3 AM*. That simple.

*at first. the immigration shite did get to me pretty hard also.
Ah. The list of what you don't want is exhaustive now that you added the footnote, then? No mean tweeting and immigration?

Jesus.

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Old 05-31-2018, 12:21 PM   #1038
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
No. Trump is President because too many fucking (mostly white) people voted for him. Sure, idiots like Sarandon and her brain damaged following who sat it out (or anyone who voted third party) can be blamed for being stupid and contributing. But the blame sits with those who voted for this fucker.
But which of the two can be changed before 2020?

Quote:
Ah. The list of what you don't want is exhaustive now that you added the footnote, then? No mean tweeting and immigration?

Jesus.

TM
Mean tweeting at 3AM does not = impolite. It means insane, and his exhibits several flavors.
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:32 PM   #1039
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Re: I'm hoping...

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But which of the two can be changed before 2020?
Oh, I'm with you. I just think we tend to lose track of why we have this colossal moron occupying the most powerful office in the world.

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Mean tweeting at 3AM does not = impolite. It means insane, and his exhibits several flavors.
Fair enough.

TM
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:36 PM   #1040
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I was talking to Dems posting nonsense ... on FB then calling trump people dumb in the next moment. most of the hard core nonsense comes from DU and other Bernie hives- and those sites are why Trump is president.
Wut
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:57 PM   #1041
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You are wasting your fucking time. No amount of "Not everyone votes tax cuts or their wallet because some of us are invested in having a functioning government, society, world, whatever" will get through. The attitude he espouses is why we have what we have. "I vote for me. If I get a tax cut of $100 a month, the poor get fucked, and the vast majority of wealth goes up to the very rich, I'm okay with it." He doesn't really give a shit about disgusting, racist, homophobic, xenophobic, hate-filled policy because it doesn't affect him. Sure, he'll say, "Yeah, I'm against that stuff." But he doesn't really give a shit unless it affects him or his wallet directly. Until it does, Dems and Republicans are essentially the same--"invested in the status quo." He says this without really understanding or caring that one party is burning every protection for people who aren't him to the ground.

Not giving a fuck about anyone outside your manufactured isolation shell is the ultimate luxury. Save your breath.

TM
I know. But I can’t help it - for my own sanity, if nothing else.

So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:12 PM   #1042
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
You are wasting your fucking time. No amount of "Not everyone votes tax cuts or their wallet because some of us are invested in having a functioning government, society, world, whatever" will get through. The attitude he espouses is why we have what we have. "I vote for me. If I get a tax cut of $100 a month, the poor get fucked, and the vast majority of wealth goes up to the very rich, I'm okay with it." He doesn't really give a shit about disgusting, racist, homophobic, xenophobic, hate-filled policy because it doesn't affect him. Sure, he'll say, "Yeah, I'm against that stuff." But he doesn't really give a shit unless it affects him or his wallet directly. Until it does, Dems and Republicans are essentially the same--"invested in the status quo." He says this without really understanding or caring that one party is burning every protection for people who aren't him to the ground.

Not giving a fuck about anyone outside your manufactured isolation shell is the ultimate luxury. Save your breath.

TM
Sebby is more interested in criminal-justice reform than many of us. You just have to push different buttons to get him to say that, but it comes from the same urge to be contrarian. When people talk about major party candidates, his contrarian impulse requires him to say that he votes his wallet, just to deflate the idealistic pretensions any of us might have that our vote would somehow make a difference in the world. When people talk about crimes in the news, his contrarian impulse requires him him to point out that the criminal justice system is unfair, just to deflate the idealistic pretensions any of us might have that wrongdoers are punished.

Sebby definitely gives a shit about what other people think. If we didn't have idealistic pretensions, he would not be able to deflate them. He's not a conservative, but what he shares with conservatives is a preoccupation with what his peers (a/k/a "elites") are thinking, and a desire to take them down a notch or two. But he does believe the criminal-justice system is unfair and thinks it should be more fair, unlike most conservatives, who generally like the way it perpetuates traditional heirarchies.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:14 PM   #1043
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
But which of the two can be changed before 2020?
Motivating ordinary people to vote, because when they do they tend to vote for Democrats. Or to put it differently, motivate Democrats to vote, and discourage Republicans from voting.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:29 PM   #1044
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Motivating ordinary people to vote, because when they do they tend to vote for Democrats. Or to put it differently, motivate Democrats to vote, and discourage Republicans from voting.
you do your thing, I'll do mine. Convincing 12,000 of the 50,000 Jill Stein in michigan that they fucked up seems easy- and those people do vote- you don't need to convince them to go do it.

People that don't vote are harder to move. Nominate someone with President's Obama's qualities and you'll get there, sure. Do you see that person coming up? Bernie is running again!
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:40 PM   #1045
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Dude. A functioning civil society and (mostly) following the constitution and laws are Hank’s book? And mine?

Dude.
Inextricably intertwined with that public explanation of hatred for third party voters and non-voters are: (a) economic interests; and, (b) classism.

Trump voters and Hillary voters come down to two essential positions:

1. Keep things going as they are;
2. Rearrange things.

I did not want to see Trump win. I feared volatility, and to a certain extent still do. That's my economic interest talking. I also do not like the pitchforks in the streets populism that defined Bannonism. To be anti-populist is to be, well, classist. The system under Obama favored people in our economic and social situations. Under Trump it also does so. But I'd be crazy not to conclude that a significant concern of the professional class regarding Trump was his potential negative impact on their economic status.

You can't break apart the economic and social hierarchy concerns of voters from the altruistic reasons they claim to vote as they have. Every person's pocketbook and social standing is with him or her in the voting booth.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:47 PM   #1046
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
you do your thing, I'll do mine. Convincing 12,000 of the 50,000 Jill Stein in michigan that they fucked up seems easy- and those people do vote- you don't need to convince them to go do it.

People that don't vote are harder to move. Nominate someone with President's Obama's qualities and you'll get there, sure. Do you see that person coming up? Bernie is running again!
Not trying to discourage you at all. I read yesterday that Jill Stein raised $7m for a 2016 recount and has been spending it since then on herself, travel and staff for whatever it is she does. So maybe you can use that to convince some of those people to put their vote to a better use.

That said, it just seems to me to be harder to go to people who were motivate to vote and to change their minds, as opposed to finding people who basically agree with you and didn't bother to cast a vote. Both have their challenges, but a mind is a terrible thing to change. As we prove here on a daily basis.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:49 PM   #1047
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Trump voters and Hillary voters come down to two essential positions:

1. Keep things going as they are;
2. Rearrange things.
You're right that it all comes down to two essential positions, but you've got them wrong. They are:

1. Equality
2. Hierarchy

Am I playing your reductio game the right way?
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:49 PM   #1048
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Not trying to discourage you at all. I read yesterday that Jill Stein raised $7m for a 2016 recount and has been spending it since then on herself, travel and staff for whatever it is she does. So maybe you can use that to convince some of those people to put their vote to a better use.

That said, it just seems to me to be harder to go to people who were motivate to vote and to change their minds, as opposed to finding people who basically agree with you and didn't bother to cast a vote. Both have their challenges, but a mind is a terrible thing to change. As we prove here on a daily basis.
Well she only got 10000 in 2012, so 40000 already have proven they are willing to change their minds.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:02 PM   #1049
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Sebby is more interested in criminal-justice reform than many of us. You just have to push different buttons to get him to say that, but it comes from the same urge to be contrarian. When people talk about major party candidates, his contrarian impulse requires him to say that he votes his wallet, just to deflate the idealistic pretensions any of us might have that our vote would somehow make a difference in the world. When people talk about crimes in the news, his contrarian impulse requires him him to point out that the criminal justice system is unfair, just to deflate the idealistic pretensions any of us might have that wrongdoers are punished.

Sebby definitely gives a shit about what other people think. If we didn't have idealistic pretensions, he would not be able to deflate them. He's not a conservative, but what he shares with conservatives is a preoccupation with what his peers (a/k/a "elites") are thinking, and a desire to take them down a notch or two. But he does believe the criminal-justice system is unfair and thinks it should be more fair, unlike most conservatives, who generally like the way it perpetuates traditional heirarchies.
This is a bit tortured.

In this instance, I very much care what Hank is thinking because the argument third party voters caused Clinton to lose, and didn't have a right to vote as they did, is total bullshit.

Trump and Hillary caused Hillary to lose. Trump because he tapped into a brilliant marketing strategy at exactly the right time. Hillary because she blundered through the campaign and failed to shore up the Blue Wall.

Hank's deflection has lacked logic from the start. And the whole whinefest about how Hillary lost because of actions of others has irked me from the start. So I wound up committing a logical fallacy myself: ad hominem. But I don't disown it. I will always believe there are hidden economic motives and social/class anxieties woven through almost all of the impassioned arguments about politics.

To think there are not, I would have to assume none of the Trump voters I've met harbor hidden, perhaps unconscious motivations. Neither you nor I would say that. We couldn't. Nor could anyone else here, as we've all held forth on the secret motives of Trumpkins. Can you credibly say that only one half of this country - the Trumpkins - harbors self-interested motives re politics? Your side is exactly and entirely what it says it is, while their side is the only group with behind-the-scenes agendas?

This whole thing started with Hank citing the Left's "fake news." I'll grant you the Right is far more dishonest about its motives. But are you seriously asserting there weren't economic concerns baked into the decision to vote for Hillary? Of course you can't say that. The only question is how deep those motives run. That, we'll never know.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:05 PM   #1050
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Re: I'm hoping...

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
You're right that it all comes down to two essential positions, but you've got them wrong. They are:

1. Equality
2. Hierarchy

Am I playing your reductio game the right way?
Close:

1. Hierarchy I like.
2. Hierarchy I do not like.
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