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Old 04-03-2018, 11:59 AM   #76
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Adder View Post
Was there ever dumber moment in time to say this? No, the current GOP and its leader are not in any way classically liberal. That's actually the break that just happened.
I meant liberal in terms of acting, versus conservatism's bias toward inaction.

Then wording could have been much better, as you are correct, the current parties are not anywhere near classically liberal. I just hate settling on "interventionist" or "prone to interfering" in private or commercial matters.
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Old 04-03-2018, 12:58 PM   #77
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Trade, immigration, and debt. That's it. The NeverTrumpers are classic Rockefeller republicans on trade, believe (admirably, and based on historical, factual proof) that immigration improves this nation, and fear growing govt debt.

They used to also detest Trump's isolationist rhetoric, many of them being neocons. The installation of Bolton fixed that problem.

I think a lot of NeverTrumpers also believe Trump is simply too indecent to hold high office.

Apropos, here's Bill Kristol being brutally honest about why we need immigrant intellectual and cultural capital. I usually find him near nauseating, but he's right here, and it's pretty funny when he realizes he's mic'd.
Why would he be self-conscious about what he's saying there? I understand being ashamed he's sharing a stage with Murray, Harvard's own white nationalist, but anyone who grew up even half-sober anywhere in lily white Red America understands that.
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Old 04-03-2018, 02:47 PM   #78
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Trade, immigration, and debt. That's it. The NeverTrumpers are classic Rockefeller republicans on trade, believe (admirably, and based on historical, factual proof) that immigration improves this nation, and fear growing govt debt.

They used to also detest Trump's isolationist rhetoric, many of them being neocons. The installation of Bolton fixed that problem.

I think a lot of NeverTrumpers also believe Trump is simply too indecent to hold high office.

Apropos, here's Bill Kristol being brutally honest about why we need immigrant intellectual and cultural capital. I usually find him near nauseating, but he's right here, and it's pretty funny when he realizes he's mic'd.
That's not a terrible list. Trade is a pretty big issue, and I would say that conservatives lament the loss of any party that even pays lip service to the concept of limited government. A lot of it is just the intellectual dishonesty among the Trump faithful. If I would freak out if something were done by a Democrat, I am not going cheer when it is done by a Republican. It seems intellectual honesty is in depressingly short supply.

I am also even more angry about the attacks on amazon, and the fact that such attacks are based either in ignorance or lies. I find that the president attacking amazon is equally distasteful to the flushing of taxpayer money down the crapper with Solyndra.

You all know that I have drunk the Kool Aid of conservatism, and that I am if nothing else a True Believer. It's been dispiriting to see how many former conservatives have debased themselves by allegiance to their troll king. I believe that enacting conservative principles could do a great good for contemporary American society, but we don't have the numbers.

I also believe that such discussions should be had honestly, and as the much despised Kevin Williamson (whom I met last month at a National Review Institute event honoring the 10th anniversary of the passing of WFB) recently said in his piece called The Epidemic of Dishonesty on the Right: "And we should be ashamed of ourselves if we come to accept this kind of dishonesty in the service of political expediency. If conservative ideas cannot prevail in the marketplace of ideas without lies, they do not deserve to prevail at all."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...esty-epidemic/

Unfortunately in "conservative media" you get paid a lot more to be a spineless shill than you do to be intellectually honest. Sean Hannity is a hack and this is probably the best money he is capable of making. OTOH, people like Laura Ingraham know better, but still choose to ring the cash register instead.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:04 PM   #79
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
That's not a terrible list. Trade is a pretty big issue, and I would say that conservatives lament the loss of any party that even pays lip service to the concept of limited government. A lot of it is just the intellectual dishonesty among the Trump faithful. If I would freak out if something were done by a Democrat, I am not going cheer when it is done by a Republican. It seems intellectual honesty is in depressingly short supply.

I am also even more angry about the attacks on amazon, and the fact that such attacks are based either in ignorance or lies. I find that the president attacking amazon is equally distasteful to the flushing of taxpayer money down the crapper with Solyndra.

You all know that I have drunk the Kool Aid of conservatism, and that I am if nothing else a True Believer. It's been dispiriting to see how many former conservatives have debased themselves by allegiance to their troll king. I believe that enacting conservative principles could do a great good for contemporary American society, but we don't have the numbers.

I also believe that such discussions should be had honestly, and as the much despised Kevin Williamson (whom I met last month at a National Review Institute event honoring the 10th anniversary of the passing of WFB) recently said in his piece called The Epidemic of Dishonesty on the Right: "And we should be ashamed of ourselves if we come to accept this kind of dishonesty in the service of political expediency. If conservative ideas cannot prevail in the marketplace of ideas without lies, they do not deserve to prevail at all."

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...esty-epidemic/

Unfortunately in "conservative media" you get paid a lot more to be a spineless shill than you do to be intellectually honest. Sean Hannity is a hack and this is probably the best money he is capable of making. OTOH, people like Laura Ingraham know better, but still choose to ring the cash register instead.
Buckley's directive was to "stand athwart" liberal interventionism. The current GOP is comprised of people who seek to intervene everywhere they can, from foreign policy to transgender troops.

One cannot stand athwart the forces that would meddle in society, politics, and the economy, while seeking himself to meddle in all of those things in different ways. This person stands for nothing. And to the extent he seeks to prohibit individual liberties, which many modern "conservatives" do, he's anti-conservative.

I cannot not think of one pure conservative off the top of my head. It might be because it's impossible to be so, which I think it might be. But it's also because most conservatives, and liberals, fall into the following category:
People who want to compel or incentivize other people to do certain things they like, and prohibit or incentivize other people from doing things they don't like.
We have two weak tents filled with people who want to move others to live as they think best. These are advocates, meddlers, busy-bodies, and many other things. What they are not is conservatives. Or, truly, liberals.

ETA: The gun control advocates in the press are routinely called Liberals. I think this is incorrect. Nobody interested in personal liberty would propose gun control. I'd say these people are Concerned Pragmatists. (I happen to fall into that group myself. I do not think I have any business telling anyone he can or cannot have a gun. However, I do think it just makes good sense, and is necessary, to allow reasonable background checks, and to try to limit the prevalence of mass-killing assault weapons.)
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:16 PM   #80
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Why would he be self-conscious about what he's saying there? I understand being ashamed he's sharing a stage with Murray, Harvard's own white nationalist, but anyone who grew up even half-sober anywhere in lily white Red America understands that.
Because it's a third rail. I can say that to you. You can say it to me. We can say it among each other all day long. But you can't say that in mixed company, or on a mic where it'll be broadcast online.

It's heresy to say what Kristol did in most of America.* Why?




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* See Obama, "God, guns and gays." See also Hillary, "basket of deplorables."
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:24 PM   #81
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
... at a National Review Institute event honoring the 10th anniversary of the passing of WFB
Look, I didn't like the guy. He was a snob, a prig, and not as sharp as he pretended. But throwing parties to celebrate his death?

I thought only his brother did that.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:27 PM   #82
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Because it's a third rail. I can say that to you. You can say it to me. We can say it among each other all day long. But you can't say that in mixed company, or on a mic where it'll be broadcast online.

It's heresy to say what Kristol did in most of America.* Why?




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* See Obama, "God, guns and gays." See also Hillary, "basket of deplorables."
As long as you phrase it in the positive ("generations of immigrants have brought their energy and work ethic to this country"), instead of the negative, you're ok.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:31 PM   #83
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Re: We are all Slave now.

The CEO of 23andMe tweets:

Quote:
I have a friend critically ill at Santa Clara Valley Medical Center who can’t get transferred to Stanford for more advanced care without a $1M deposit. What kind of morals are reflected in our society when you know you can save someone’s life but refuse to do so bc of payment?!
I wonder how many people would be healthier if 23andMe gave free genetic testing to all comers.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:19 PM   #84
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Re: We are all Slave now.

I have been offline for happy, family related reasons. Upon my return, I see a topic about which I can speak with some authority: The killing power, and other attributes, of what I came to know as an M-16.

I challenge anyone here to find a post of mine calling out a fellow poster. Disagree? Absolutely. But I've never said anything like this:

Slave is absolutely full of shit.

I carried, and fired in anger and with effect, an M-16 for my first two months in combat. No one in my platoon, other than whoever was walking point at the moment, ever kept their rifle on automatic. Because after you've emptied the clip in a few seconds, you would be fumbling around with an empty magazine. Or your dick in your hands, which is generally combat ineffective. So most of the time, the preferred combat mode for the M-16 was semiautomatic. The high speed tumbling bullet inflicted hideous wounds. This was before 30 round magazines; ours were twenty. (This was a factual flaw saw in "We Were Soldiers", which was my unit, albeit I was there later in time.)

I was then trained, in-country, as a sniper with a balanced M-14 and match grain ammunition. (I did not have extensive Carlos Hancock type training; I shot the thing for three weeks in Bien Hoa and returned to my platoon) It did not. I say again not... have an automatic capability. Yet when my turn came, as it did regularly, I walked point with that rifle. Armed with 20 rounds and 7.62mm bullets, I could get off a ferocious field of fire when I had to do so.

Both of those rifles were indisputably weapons of war. I had four kills with the sniper rifle for ambush positions.

The AR15 is not a goddamn "fun" weapon. It was designed to kill people. I would ban it if I could. If not, I would take the following steps:

1. Many gun devotees, members of my former platoon among them, say gun control should be "You control your gun and I'll control mine." I say fine. But if your gun is used in a crime, then you should go to jail for not securing it. If you sell it to someone who has not passed a background check, the same thing goes. If it is stolen from anyplace other than a government certified location, and used in a crime, you go to jail.

2. You may only transport your rifle from one private property to another in a disassembled state.

3. Possession of magazines in excess of ten rounds is hereby illegal.

4. Other thoughts on this can be found on a long ago post where I drafted a "Well Regulated Militia Act."

Saying that an AR15 is not a weapon of war because it has no automatic capability is simply moronic.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:22 PM   #85
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller View Post
I have been offline for happy, family related reasons. Upon my return, I see a topic about which I can speak with some authority: The killing power, and other attributes, of what I came to know as an M-16.

I challenge anyone here to find a post of mine calling out a fellow poster. Disagree? Absolutely. But I've never said anything like this:

Slave is absolutely full of shit.

I carried, and fired in anger and with effect, an M-16 for my first two months in combat. No one in my platoon, other than whoever was walking point at the moment, ever kept their rifle on automatic. Because after you've emptied the clip in a few seconds, you would be fumbling around with an empty magazine. Or your dick in your hands, which is generally combat ineffective. So most of the time, the preferred combat mode for the M-16 was semiautomatic. The high speed tumbling bullet inflicted hideous wounds. This was before 30 round magazines; ours were twenty. (This was a factual flaw saw in "We Were Soldiers", which was my unit, albeit I was there later in time.)

I was then trained, in-country, as a sniper with a balanced M-14 and match grain ammunition. (I did not have extensive Carlos Hancock type training; I shot the thing for three weeks in Bien Hoa and returned to my platoon) It did not. I say again not... have an automatic capability. Yet when my turn came, as it did regularly, I walked point with that rifle. Armed with 20 rounds and 7.62mm bullets, I could get off a ferocious field of fire when I had to do so.

Both of those rifles were indisputably weapons of war. I had four kills with the sniper rifle for ambush positions.

The AR15 is not a goddamn "fun" weapon. It was designed to kill people. I would ban it if I could. If not, I would take the following steps:

1. Many gun devotees, members of my former platoon among them, say gun control should be "You control your gun and I'll control mine." I say fine. But if your gun is used in a crime, then you should go to jail for not securing it. If you sell it to someone who has not passed a background check, the same thing goes. If it is stolen from anyplace other than a government certified location, and used in a crime, you go to jail.

2. You may only transport your rifle from one private property to another in a disassembled state.

3. Possession of magazines in excess of ten rounds is hereby illegal.

4. Other thoughts on this can be found on a long ago post where I drafted a "Well Regulated Militia Act."

Saying that an AR15 is not a weapon of war because it has no automatic capability is simply moronic.
I think Slave's point was that other weapons are equally deadly or moreso, including large-caliber handguns and shotguns. I disagree, but I don't think he was confusing an AR-15 with a Nerf gun.
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Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 04-03-2018 at 04:36 PM.. Reason: "moreso"
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:26 PM   #86
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller View Post
I have been offline for happy, family related reasons. Upon my return, I see a topic about which I can speak with some authority: The killing power, and other attributes, of what I came to know as an M-16.

I challenge anyone here to find a post of mine calling out a fellow poster. Disagree? Absolutely. But I've never said anything like this:

Slave is absolutely full of shit.

I carried, and fired in anger and with effect, an M-16 for my first two months in combat. No one in my platoon, other than whoever was walking point at the moment, ever kept their rifle on automatic. Because after you've emptied the clip in a few seconds, you would be fumbling around with an empty magazine. Or your dick in your hands, which is generally combat ineffective. So most of the time, the preferred combat mode for the M-16 was semiautomatic. The high speed tumbling bullet inflicted hideous wounds. This was before 30 round magazines; ours were twenty. (This was a factual flaw saw in "We Were Soldiers", which was my unit, albeit I was there later in time.)

I was then trained, in-country, as a sniper with a balanced M-14 and match grain ammunition. (I did not have extensive Carlos Hancock type training; I shot the thing for three weeks in Bien Hoa and returned to my platoon) It did not. I say again not... have an automatic capability. Yet when my turn came, as it did regularly, I walked point with that rifle. Armed with 20 rounds and 7.62mm bullets, I could get off a ferocious field of fire when I had to do so.

Both of those rifles were indisputably weapons of war. I had four kills with the sniper rifle for ambush positions.

The AR15 is not a goddamn "fun" weapon. It was designed to kill people. I would ban it if I could. If not, I would take the following steps:

1. Many gun devotees, members of my former platoon among them, say gun control should be "You control your gun and I'll control mine." I say fine. But if your gun is used in a crime, then you should go to jail for not securing it. If you sell it to someone who has not passed a background check, the same thing goes. If it is stolen from anyplace other than a government certified location, and used in a crime, you go to jail.

2. You may only transport your rifle from one private property to another in a disassembled state.

3. Possession of magazines in excess of ten rounds is hereby illegal.

4. Other thoughts on this can be found on a long ago post where I drafted a "Well Regulated Militia Act."

Saying that an AR15 is not a weapon of war because it has no automatic capability is simply moronic.
Slave's devotion to the AR15 is religious, not logical. You will not convince sway him with reason, knowledge or experience.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:27 PM   #87
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Hence the magazine restriction. You know porn when you see it. You can apply my sentiments about the AR 15 to any weapon with the same semiautomatic capability.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:38 PM   #88
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrets_bueller View Post
Hence the magazine restriction. You know porn when you see it. You can apply my sentiments about the AR 15 to any weapon with the same semiautomatic capability.
Agreed. Semiautomatic pistols have smaller magazines (and more recoil for larger caliber weapons). Shotguns are arguably deadlier at close range, but not semiautomatic.

It turns out that there is a reason that the Army issues soldiers AR-15s instead of handguns and shotguns. Who woulda thunk it?

eta: Apparently there is a mass shooting going on at YouTube's offices in San Bruno. Ugh.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...ce-say-1099410
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:28 PM   #89
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Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Agreed. Semiautomatic pistols have smaller magazines (and more recoil for larger caliber weapons). Shotguns are arguably deadlier at close range, but not semiautomatic.

It turns out that there is a reason that the Army issues soldiers AR-15s instead of handguns and shotguns. Who woulda thunk it?

eta: Apparently there is a mass shooting going on at YouTube's offices in San Bruno. Ugh.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...ce-say-1099410
Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital? Seriously?
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:49 PM   #90
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Re: We are all Slave now.

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Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital? Seriously?
We're supposed to be grateful that he left "San Francisco General" in the name.
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