LawTalkers  

Go Back   LawTalkers > General Discussion > Politics

» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
» Online Users: 197
0 members and 197 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 4,499, 10-26-2015 at 07:55 AM.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-10-2018, 12:35 PM   #1606
ThurgreedMarshall
[intentionally omitted]
 
ThurgreedMarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 18,595
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I don't see any EU countries making efforts to find and remove people who have been living there for years. Maybe it's happening in places like Poland and Hungary where the domestic politics are different. OTOH, in the UK you have some parallel with people (especially citizens of other EU countries) running into obstacles with the Home Office, but even so the Home Office is nothing like ICE. There is a cruelty for the sake of cruelty here that I don't see there.
The Dominican Republic seems to be where this country goes next when it comes to immigration policy. Miller would institute their policies now if that racist little shit could.

But at least Hillary didn't get to name a Supreme Court Justice.

TM
ThurgreedMarshall is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:52 PM   #1607
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,041
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
But at least Hillary didn't get to name a Supreme Court Justice.

TM
I've heard there would be no real difference between who she'd have nominated and Trump's pick?
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:55 PM   #1608
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I've heard there would be no real difference between who she'd have nominated and Trump's pick?
No substantive differences. Maybe a bit of difference in areas like, say, privacy rights or due process, but Sebby don't care.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:57 PM   #1609
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,041
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
ICE. There is a cruelty for the sake of cruelty here that I don't see there.
I wonder how that works with a new administration- like the line workers ("agents?") are still there from Obama's time. My little gov agency doesn't really change day to day because the same people are making the same decisions- there may be some high level emphasis change, but you'd be hard pressed to see it.

But ICE: here you were working to do a job you thought good and necessary going back for a few decades, and suddenly you get orders to start tearing families apart? How does an agency geek up its civil servants to suddenly become cruel when they were not so much cruel the day before the new administration? Or is it like cops, "fucking aye, I've been waiting for the gloves to taken off!"
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:01 PM   #1610
SEC_Chick
I am beyond a rank!
 
SEC_Chick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: A pool of my own vomit
Posts: 732
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
No substantive differences.
If that were true, then wouldn't Kavenaugh sail through and be confirmed 97-0 like Kennedy was?

I'm hearing that I'll be a handmaid soon. Or I would be if I hadn't already been killed by tax reform and net neutrality. The fill in the blank protest signs, like they used with Gorsuch, were an especially nice touch.
SEC_Chick is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:03 PM   #1611
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I wonder how that works with a new administration- like the line workers ("agents?") are still there from Obama's time. My little gov agency doesn't really change day to day because the same people are making the same decisions- there may be some high level emphasis change, but you'd be hard pressed to see it.

But ICE: here you were working to do a job you thought good and necessary going back for a few decades, and suddenly you get orders to start tearing families apart? How does an agency geek up its civil servants to suddenly become cruel when they were not so much cruel the day before the new administration? Or is it like cops, "fucking aye, I've been waiting for the gloves to taken off!"
I think it's a combination of your last two sentences. Previously, ICE was purportedly focused on finding people who were trouble -- felons, etc. Like any other government agency, sometimes they were lazy and sometimes they were overeager, and you didn't hear anything about the former for obvious reasons and you would hear about the latter from time to time. But what kind of person goes to work at ICE relative to the alternatives? I'm sure there are a bunch of people at ICE who can get zealous about their job for a range of reasons, and it sounds like the new administration is not only letting them go hog wild (whatever the reason) but encouraging them to do so by setting quotas.
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:06 PM   #1612
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
The fill in the blank protest signs, like they used with Gorsuch, were an especially nice touch.
It's cute to see people sniff at blanket opposition now, like no one can remember 2008-16. Merrick Garland? What is that? Some kind of olde time Yule decoration? The name is vaguely familiar.
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:19 PM   #1613
SEC_Chick
I am beyond a rank!
 
SEC_Chick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: A pool of my own vomit
Posts: 732
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
It's cute to see people sniff at blanket opposition now, like no one can remember 2008-16. Merrick Garland? What is that? Some kind of olde time Yule decoration? The name is vaguely familiar.
Can you refresh my recollection as to the how the vote for Miguel Estrada went?
SEC_Chick is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:35 PM   #1614
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
If that were true, then wouldn't Kavenaugh sail through and be confirmed 97-0 like Kennedy was?

I'm hearing that I'll be a handmaid soon. Or I would be if I hadn't already been killed by tax reform and net neutrality. The fill in the blank protest signs, like they used with Gorsuch, were an especially nice touch.
Note the Federalist Society had its ad buy in favor of the candidate lined up before the announcement. Blank signs indeed.

We all know this process has become overly politicized. The politicization of the court has been a goal of the right for my entire adult life; court composition has been a huge rallying cry on the right, all in response to their grievances on the court's role in civil rights decisions.

But how to stop the spiral?

My preference would be a court with much more substantive expertise, that didn't render decisions in IP or Tax cases that left specialists scratching their head or that wrote a cogent and supported version of American history that could withstand scrutiny by actual historians. I'd rather see fewer political entries on resumes for the Court. But only ideology matters today.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 01:40 PM   #1615
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
Can you refresh my recollection as to the how the vote for Miguel Estrada went?
Good old fashioned filibuster.

Filibusters were a good way of keeping fringe nominees off the bench and avoiding the kind of politicization we have today. Any number of divisive nominees were never put forward from fear of a filibuster. I'd love to see more consensus around court choices in general.

I know, bipartisanship is hard. Boo-hoo.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:00 PM   #1616
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
Can you refresh my recollection as to the how the vote for Miguel Estrada went?
Yes, I believe it was a completely similar situation to Garland, in that Senate Democrats categorically obstructed Bush judicial appointments, preventing him from filling a seat on the DC Circuit.

No, wait -- that's not right. Bush II appointed several conservatives to the DC Circuit, including John Roberts and Brett Kavanaugh. Perhaps you were confused?

The post of yours to which I responded called out lefties who prepared to oppose Trump's nominee before they knew who it was. Of course, very few conservatives had a problem with kneejerk opposition to Obama. When the other side does it, one can sniff that they lack intellectual heft or principle. When your side does it, it's just a political tactic that doesn't mean anything.

I think it would be interesting to have a real conversation with someone like yourself about what is broken with the judicial appointment and confirmation process, but only if there is some prospect that we might actually agree on some shared principles. The right has been engaged in a decades-long project to shape -- to politicize -- the federal judiciary. It's not a secret. Of course the left responds. Each side can point to instances where the other side has abandoned prior norms, so each side can play the victim. I have many thoughts about this, but the overarching one is sadness. I think it's bad for the judicial system to be politicized in this way, and I don't see how to reverse it.
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:04 PM   #1617
SEC_Chick
I am beyond a rank!
 
SEC_Chick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: A pool of my own vomit
Posts: 732
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Good old fashioned filibuster.

Filibusters were a good way of keeping fringe nominees off the bench and avoiding the kind of politicization we have today. Any number of divisive nominees were never put forward from fear of a filibuster. I'd love to see more consensus around court choices in general.

I know, bipartisanship is hard. Boo-hoo.
He was the first appeals court nominee in history to be successfully filibustered. Perhaps he should have been given an up or down vote, as was being demanded for Garland, but that would require intellectual honesty, no? Per the Senate Judiciary Committee internal strategy memos, Estrada was filibustered because he "is Latino" and was being groomed for SCOTUS. (See https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106877910996248300 and let me hear more complaints about the Federalist Society involvement in the process.)

Bipartisanship is even harder when one party seems to think they'll be in the majority forever when they pull the pin on the nuclear option.
SEC_Chick is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:41 PM   #1618
ThurgreedMarshall
[intentionally omitted]
 
ThurgreedMarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 18,595
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I've heard there would be no real difference between who she'd have nominated and Trump's pick?
Both parties are essentially the same. We needed to shake things up.

TM
ThurgreedMarshall is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 03:15 PM   #1619
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEC_Chick View Post
He was the first appeals court nominee in history to be successfully filibustered. Perhaps he should have been given an up or down vote, as was being demanded for Garland, but that would require intellectual honesty, no? Per the Senate Judiciary Committee internal strategy memos, Estrada was filibustered because he "is Latino" and was being groomed for SCOTUS. (See https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106877910996248300 and let me hear more complaints about the Federalist Society involvement in the process.)

Bipartisanship is even harder when one party seems to think they'll be in the majority forever when they pull the pin on the nuclear option.
Bipartisanship today is indeed impossible. It's gone. I'd love to bring it back, but, let's face it, where is there a Republican we can trust or deal with in a position of authority? I know you don't think well of the Republican leadership, despite being committed to what were, historically, considered conservative ideals.

There are Republicans we can deal with, and if any of them were in power, there might be hope. For example, both Hatch and Graham have histories of being able to work across the aisle. McConnell? No way, fuck him. Hypocritical lying ass. Ryan? Total ass, can't be trusted. Trump's team?! [uncontrollable laughter.]
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 07-10-2018, 03:21 PM   #1620
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,041
Re: We are all Slave now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Sometimes it's more important to figure it out.

Of course I could give you all the answers, every one, if I wanted to, but in the long term, you'll thank me.
No time for reading politics. I’m knee deep on very important issues involving whether a dash in a Japanese document from 1975 was a minus sign or a hyphen. I’d love to do some outside reading but the economy is depending on me keeping my focus.
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:24 AM.