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Old Yesterday, 03:04 PM   #2116
Pretty Little Flower
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Re: Turd in the Bowl

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If you don't see the ironic use of "pilates instructor" or "hairdresser," I'd advocate some DMT. See the mechanical elves... let them carry you away from angry-and-righteous-pants land.




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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM   #2117
ThurgreedMarshall
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Re: Turd in the Bowl

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I can not watch Maher. In fact, I can cancel HBO. I just can't tie the two, or threaten the second if they don't take Maher off. I got all that, and since I don't want to be low, I will behave accordingly.

My fear though, is what if an HBO rep calls me and asks why I cancelled?
Dude, you already fucked up by telling us you're going to cancel HBO. I'm going to do it too now, which makes you the head of a boycott mob.

TM
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Old Yesterday, 03:38 PM   #2118
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Re: Turd in the Bowl

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
An angry reaction by a number of people which gets the attention of HBO execs and causes them to fire Maher is fine. That's an organic process ending in a business decision. An angry reaction by a number of people demanding that Maher lose his job and pushing for that result is not within the marketplace of ideas. It's not a response to an idea at all. I'll explain by example:

Maher made a dumb racially insensitive joke a few months ago.

In response, normal people said, "That was a foul. Bad joke, bad idea. Bad Bill. Don't do something like that again." Other normal people, like Ice Cube, came on his show and took him to the woodshed about his bad judgment in making the joke.

That is the marketplace of ideas at work. Maher offered an idea -- that it was okay for him to make that joke, and that the joke was funny. The marketplace said, "Nope, Bill. That joke is not okay. It sucks and it's offensive. Bad fucking idea."

Bill lost. If his idea, or his joke, were a company, it'd have failed. If it were a stock, it'd have gone to zero. And consequently, everyone learned a lesson about boundaries. And Maher, whose program showcases important issues and important guests (climate change almost every week, to name one of many) remains a source of useful and enlightening entertainment (for a TV crowd).

But... If the Twitter mob had its way, much as dipshit right wingers threw Maher off of HBO in 2001 for telling the truth (that the 9/11 hijackers were not cowards by any stretch of the imagination), Maher and his show would have ended. This is not a competition of ideas. This is retribution. It's childish anger -- and it's the low seeking to take down their betters. It's a bully with a Twitter feed seeking to preclude the competition of Maher's dumb joke and the public's view of it within the marketplace of ideas. It's seeking to attack not the idea, but the source of it. It's also weak. It suggests that the idea might not fail or be sufficiently rejected on its own.

I find many opinions and ideas repugnant and stupid and offensive. But should I seek to silence their speakers in reply to them? Or should I seek to express why and how such views are flawed and stupid and offensive? Clearly, for the thinking person, the smart and evolved person, the latter is the preferred course. (It's not even up for debate.)

If you say something I don't like, I've the right to tell your boss to fire you for it. But I would hope, and I trust this would be the case, that your boss would say, "Fuck you" to me in response. But as you correctly note, if the mob gets large enough and loud enough, in many instances, a board will fire the offending comic or pundit regardless of whether the mob has asked for that redress. That's unfortunate. But I don't blame the mob for that. Should the mob demand the offender be fired, however, fuck that mob. Fuck that deeply un-American mob and its childish, thuggish behavior. And yes, they are low. He who defies the spirit of free speech in that regard - and that defies it - is low.
I really do not think you understand that you are personally deciding where the you-should-get-fired line is. You don't think that particular joke rises to the level of a fire-able offense. Obviously there are awful, terrible jokes that would (in your mind). I'm not going to give you an example because I assume you're smart enough to understand the point I'm making.

But even with your example, HBO engaged in an analysis based on the number of people who took offense to what Maher said. I guarantee you that if there were significantly more people who thought that the joke was so offensive that he should have lost his job, he would have lost his job. Period.

I think we can agree that there are instances when people get carried away. I don't agree that shouting down speakers who have been invited to share their ideas (even if they're awful) makes sense. It (kinda) happened at my alma mater to a guy who was a former white supremacist who was invited to talk about the mindset of white supremacists and what made him change (as well as his work fighting against hate). He was allowed to speak, but students held protest signs during the entire talk because they didn't want the school rewarding him or some shit.

On campuses, the issue is that a small group of people has an outsized voice and can ruin it for a large group of people. I think you're conflating that with your constant "twitter mob" references. The two things do not work the same way. If someone says something truly offensive, I guarantee you networks, shows, advertisers (i) make a determination whether they want to be associated with someone like that and/or (ii) perform an analysis of how many people are expressing anger and whether the threat of the loss of their business is worth a continued association. What amazes me is that you do not think that all of that falls within the marketplace of ideas.

Having a TV show is great. It is a tremendously rewarding job in terms of fame and fortune. You are not guaranteed a right to keep it. You either figure out how to maintain it or you don't. I see no difference between being completely unfunny such that you lose your show over lack of interest or being so offensive that you lose your show over outrage. The fact that you are so worked up about the very few instances of people dealing with the consequences of their own words and inability to understand how not to be overly offensive is absolutely puzzling.

TM

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Old Yesterday, 04:43 PM   #2119
Adder
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

So, the President was accused of rape (again) and it's sorta not a thing. That's depressing.
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Old Yesterday, 10:08 PM   #2120
Hank Chinaski
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Re: Turd in the Bowl

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
Dude, you already fucked up by telling us you're going to cancel HBO. I'm going to do it too now, which makes you the head of a boycott mob.

TM
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Old Yesterday, 10:20 PM   #2121
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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So, the President was accused of rape (again) and it's sorta not a thing. That's depressing.
Kavanaugh/Avenatti Effect.

Fire at the bear, kill it. Otherwise...
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