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Old 12-12-2017, 03:06 PM   #3391
sebastian_dangerfield
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Fact is no one talks much about the justified discrimination claim or the claim that should have been brought because someone is just racist as hell or openly harassing people because, well, these things are everyday and not surprising to anyone. Just looking at law firms where I've worked, a fraction of the claims that could be brought are.
Agreed. Professionals and higher-ups don't bring them too much because even if resolved by a confidential agreement, other employers in one's field will find out about claim. And people don't hire people who bring claims.

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Everyone talks about every single "reverse" discrimination or unjustified discrimination case brought because they're few and far between. I've seen precisely one discrimination case that shouldn't have been brought,but it's one of the cases I've ended up talking about a fair bit because it has some unique features that make it interesting.
The nuisance claims are the problem. Lower level workers don't have as much to lose, so they roll the dice.

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Sure, all kinds of stuff happens. The monkey does occasionally type a line from Shakespeare. But the stuff that happens every goddamn day is what we ought to be focused on.
It's a lot more common than that.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:11 PM   #3392
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
All. the. time.

Whether you believe me or not is immaterial.
Actually, it is quite material if you're full of shit.

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Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
If you fire someone who has a scintilla of a claim, there's a decent chance you'll hear from a lawyer.
Again, this is bullshit. And the idea that you just say it's so but can't point to any evidence other than that one time you personally witnessed it is pure Sebby.

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I don't believe you know much about the subject...
What you believe is immaterial.

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...or you wouldn't say what you have. This shit isn't some hidden wisdom. It's well known to almost any employment lawyer.
No. What is well known to employment lawyers is that companies need to have their ducks in a row when they fire someone in order to avoid lawsuits that the firing was unfair for any number of reasons (even when it comes to at-will employees).

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It's a risk free method to collect a few dollars on the way out the door. Sure, people fight it. But a lot more make simple business decisions. You know this. You're just being a pain in the balls.
It is not risk-free, jackass. If you go through with the suit, you risk your career going forward because companies don't want to hire employees who have sued their previous employers for any reason.

You started off saying that a subjective standard creates situations in which anything can be seen as sexist and offensive. You then created a world in which people are constantly taking advantage of the standard you think is squishy. It is not true. It is rare. And I don't give a care in the world if you say, "It happens all the time," until you're blue in the face.

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Old 12-12-2017, 03:18 PM   #3393
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Actually, it is quite material if you're full of shit.

Again, this is bullshit. And the idea that you just say it's so but can't point to any evidence other than that one time you personally witnessed it is pure Sebby.

What you believe is immaterial.

No. What is well known to employment lawyers is that companies need to have their ducks in a row when they fire someone in order to avoid lawsuits that the firing was unfair for any number of reasons (even when it comes to at-will employees).

It is not risk-free, jackass. If you go through with the suit, you risk your career going forward because companies don't want to hire employees who have sued their previous employers for any reason.

You started off saying that a subjective standard creates situations in which anything can be seen as sexist and offensive. You then created a world in which people are constantly taking advantage of the standard you think is squishy. It is not true. It is rare. And I don't give a care in the world if you say, "It happens all the time," until you're blue in the face.

TM
Of course it’s risk-free, you moron. You have a lawyer call, threaten with some facts, and if you were a lower level employee, there’s a good chance you’ll be paid to go away.

If the bluff doesn’t work, you don’t have to bring the claim.

The guy with all the risk is the lawyer. If a lawyer gets his bluff called twice, he’s going to have an issue with future claims.

When was the last time you were on the phone with the head of HR? I can tell you when I was. Three hours ago. In your own words, Cliff Claven: fuck out of here.
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Last edited by sebastian_dangerfield; 12-12-2017 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:26 PM   #3394
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Yep

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/o...imes&smtyp=cur

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Old 12-12-2017, 03:28 PM   #3395
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Of course it’s risk-free, you moron. You have a lawyer call, threaten with some facts, and if you were a lower level employee, there’s a good chance you’ll be paid to go away.
This is a ridiculous argument. An employee can bring a claim against a boss for pushing them down a flight of stairs too. It surely would be cheaper to pay them off than to litigate it. But there needs to be some evidence of the employee being pushed down a flight of stairs. And if your argument is that employees now make assertions through their lawyer of sexual harassment because the standard isn't objective enough such that this is a thing that happens all the time, you are full of shit.

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If the bluff doesn’t work, you don’t have to bring the claim.
Again, this is true of everything under the sun.

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The guy with all the risk is the lawyer. If a lawyer gets his bluff called twice, he’s going to have an issue with future claims.

When was the last time you were on the phone with the head of HR? I can tell you when I was. Three hours ago. In your own words, Cliff Claven: fuck out of here.
Well, that proves you know everything and it certainly proves your ridiculous claims, Woody.* Now fuck off, you full-of-shit windbag.

TM

*I liked this better than Norm. Fits better.

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Old 12-12-2017, 04:39 PM   #3396
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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The nuisance claims are the problem. Lower level workers don't have as much to lose, so they roll the dice.
Nuisance claims are just that, a nuisance.

If you end up paying out $20K and paying a $10K professional bill for a nuisance claim to get a release and confidentiality agreement on terminating an $80-100K employee who was a problem at their time of severance, I'd tell you (i) you're probably paying him (it's always a him) less than he'd already cost your business in bad will and damages, and (ii) your severance costs are still well below those of almost any other place in the world. Of course, management may feel out of sorts because no one likes to stroke a check to someone who hurt their business. But they hired him.

And my experience is the one's who pay more than the occasional nuisance claim are usually either hiring bums because they pay squat and have a bad reputation as a place to work or generating real claims because they're racist or sexist assholes or managerial nightmares.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:41 PM   #3397
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Re: Yep

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I'll sum it up as simply as this: by staying, Al would have been an obstacle to the change that needs to happen. By leaving, he's part of that change.

I can agree with Ms. Teachout that we need a better process to handle these things. And with you that losing a seat isn't the right penalty for every offense. But until that process is in place and some standards are set, he had to go because of the ongoing political harm and harm to the cause of taking inappropriate sexual conduct seriously his presence was doing.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:52 PM   #3398
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Well, that proves you know everything and it certainly proves your ridiculous claims, Woody.* Now fuck off, you full-of-shit windbag.

TM

*I liked this better than Norm. Fits better.
Dead on, and more persuasive that what I posted. Please disregard my attempt to use logic and experience with Sebby.
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Old 12-12-2017, 05:49 PM   #3399
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Nuisance claims are just that, a nuisance.

If you end up paying out $20K and paying a $10K professional bill for a nuisance claim to get a release and confidentiality agreement on terminating an $80-100K employee who was a problem at their time of severance, I'd tell you (i) you're probably paying him (it's always a him) less than he'd already cost your business in bad will and damages, and (ii) your severance costs are still well below those of almost any other place in the world. Of course, management may feel out of sorts because no one likes to stroke a check to someone who hurt their business. But they hired him.

And my experience is the one's who pay more than the occasional nuisance claim are usually either hiring bums because they pay squat and have a bad reputation as a place to work or generating real claims because they're racist or sexist assholes or managerial nightmares.
I've fired one racist male and 3 or 4 young women who did some dumb dumb stuff. We never got any claim of anything at the time of the firings, but at the time of firings we offered a severance that was nice enough we knew they couldn't say no. And yes, the "cost" of each severance was much cheaper than the harm.

On the other hand, my daughter had a "job" in NYC that promised $20/hour. Office work in the mail room. The catch was you needed to train for 5 days for free, then you start cashing checks!!! Her first day was her co-worker's 5th. She started mailing crap immediately, it was not training, it was the job. At the end of the fifth day the guy fired the co-worker. My daughter had the good timing to only waste one day. But she didn't think of sticking it out and suing. And there has to be some NYC law that that shit violates. I mean the guy staffed his company with free desperate labor.

But I'm not sure how we got to this point, because I'm still stuck back on "it isn't harassment to walk around an office saying how hot Taylor Swift is."
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:09 PM   #3400
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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But I'm not sure how we got to this point, because I'm still stuck back on "it isn't harassment to walk around an office saying how hot Taylor Swift is."
I tried to move past that fast. Got a kind of Roy Moore/ Spanky vibe off Sebby's post and really can't deal with that now.
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:39 PM   #3401
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Re: Yep

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I'll sum it up as simply as this: by staying, Al would have been an obstacle to the change that needs to happen. By leaving, he's part of that change.

I can agree with Ms. Teachout that we need a better process to handle these things. And with you that losing a seat isn't the right penalty for every offense. But until that process is in place and some standards are set, he had to go because of the ongoing political harm and harm to the cause of taking inappropriate sexual conduct seriously his presence was doing.
I think we can agree that we completely disagree on the level of political harm (and the cause) his presence was causing.

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Old 12-12-2017, 08:24 PM   #3402
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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On the other hand, my daughter had a "job" in NYC that promised $20/hour. Office work in the mail room. The catch was you needed to train for 5 days for free, then you start cashing checks!!! Her first day was her co-worker's 5th. She started mailing crap immediately, it was not training, it was the job. At the end of the fifth day the guy fired the co-worker. My daughter had the good timing to only waste one day. But she didn't think of sticking it out and suing. And there has to be some NYC law that that shit violates. I mean the guy staffed his company with free desperate labor.
i think I worked there. Quit after a week and went to the department of labor for advertised rate. Got it.
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Old 12-12-2017, 08:26 PM   #3403
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Of course it’s risk-free, you moron. You have a lawyer call, threaten with some facts, and if you were a lower level employee, there’s a good chance you’ll be paid to go away.

.
Umm sure, everyone just writes a check to a lawyer that calls. No plaintiff lawyer ever has to file a complaint, do depositions and oppose summary judgment motions or anything. That would be like, work.
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:42 PM   #3404
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Re: Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

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Umm sure, everyone just writes a check to a lawyer that calls. No plaintiff lawyer ever has to file a complaint, do depositions and oppose summary judgment motions or anything. That would be like, work.
I have. It’s all #s. I’ve done both sides. Pay fast, pay cheap, have a release handy.

But I doubt I’m usually dealing with dollars that’s entice you. This isn’t seven figure territory.

And I hate law. It’s all math. I’ve usually got a mouth breather with a mortgage on the other end.
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Old 12-12-2017, 10:56 PM   #3405
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Steve Bannon

Back to the straight-to-video camp for you.

Roy? Um, you understand your wife’s fucking that “Jewish lawyer,” right?

And now, for the first time in history, “Alabama, Fuck Yeah?”
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