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Old 01-02-2020, 01:41 PM   #4996
Hank Chinaski
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Yeah, lots of them, but I assume you mean among "white" people in the west.
Well, I think I meant of peoples that I encounter. I think most of you had way deeper schooling is social sciences than I did. I took Thermodynamics IV instead of Sociology 400. That's why I was curious about what the guy was saying, not supporting it, or whoever he is- just wondering.
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Old 01-02-2020, 02:00 PM   #4997
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Well, I think I meant of peoples that I encounter. I think most of you had way deeper schooling is social sciences than I did. I took Thermodynamics IV instead of Sociology 400. That's why I was curious about what the guy was saying, not supporting it, or whoever he is- just wondering.
You might actually enjoy the Mismeasure of Man, Stephen Jay Gould's book responding to Murray. Don't read the whole thing, it gets repetitive, but the first hundred pages will give you his thinking and the basic history of racial pseudo-science.

Much of the discussion is more about what good scientific reasoning is, and how social science types screw it up by not understanding basic logical and scientific concepts. And how their screw ups then work their way into general discourse.

Gould wrote before the big breaks from sequencing the genome, someone needs to do an update with all the added data (which generally - surprise! surprise! - bore out what the real scientist was saying).
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Old 01-02-2020, 02:12 PM   #4998
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Well, I think I meant of peoples that I encounter. I think most of you had way deeper schooling is social sciences than I did. I took Thermodynamics IV instead of Sociology 400. That's why I was curious about what the guy was saying, not supporting it, or whoever he is- just wondering.
Nothing that Stephens said is particularly new. See, e.g., this New York magazine article about a similar kerfuffle fifteen years ago, with more about the past of it. The reaction to his piece from most people was less about the specific content and more about Stephens' decision to write that column now, at a time when anti-Semitic attacks are coming more frequently. I take a familiarity with these ideas and the reactions to them as part of the landscape, perhaps not because I took sociology classes instead of thermodynamics (although I read Pynchon!), but rather because I grew up with a Jewish parent and siblings.
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Old 01-02-2020, 02:14 PM   #4999
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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You might actually enjoy the Mismeasure of Man, Stephen Jay Gould's book responding to Murray. Don't read the whole thing, it gets repetitive, but the first hundred pages will give you his thinking and the basic history of racial pseudo-science.

Much of the discussion is more about what good scientific reasoning is, and how social science types screw it up by not understanding basic logical and scientific concepts. And how their screw ups then work their way into general discourse.

Gould wrote before the big breaks from sequencing the genome, someone needs to do an update with all the added data (which generally - surprise! surprise! - bore out what the real scientist was saying).
Maybe the big idea in that book, which is great, is that "intelligence" is not a single thing susceptible to measurement with a single metric, and that when scientists purport to measure "intelligence" they are measuring some subset of it that they particularly value for cultural reasons.
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Old 01-02-2020, 02:14 PM   #5000
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Maybe the big idea in that book, which is great, is that "intelligence" is not a single thing susceptible to measurement with a single metric, and that when scientists purport to measure "intelligence" they are measuring some subset of it that they particularly value for cultural reasons.
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Old 01-02-2020, 02:16 PM   #5001
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Don't go drawing too much from 23 and me. There are folks in my wife's family who test 100% Irish whose kids only test 40% Irish.
You may also find out grandad had an affair long ago while away on business. And some relatives will not think this is the delightful news you do.

My results get updated every year. I'd pretty consistently been between Ireland/England/Scotland and Scnadanavia (1/3) and Germany/Poland/Eastern Europe/Russia (2/3). But the most recent one is now saying I'm a lot more German than any results had stated before. And the Norway/Sweden portion was shifted to most prominently include Finland.

I'm beginning to think that other than linking you to people sharing exact DNA matches, these tests are bullshit.
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Old 01-02-2020, 02:28 PM   #5002
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Maybe the big idea in that book, which is great, is that "intelligence" is not a single thing susceptible to measurement with a single metric, and that when scientists purport to measure "intelligence" they are measuring some subset of it that they particularly value for cultural reasons.
Agreed. That's the 800 lb gorilla in this conversation. Bunch of geeks come up with a test they say measures objective intelligence. But who selects the measurements that make up this objective assessment? That same star chamber of geeks.

Who selects the Nobel winner? How objective are their criteria?

I can look at the B student with street smarts and the A student without them and tell you the latter is technically probably smarter. But I can also tell you the former is probably going to do a hell of a lot better in life. So what measure should we use? Who can think best in the abstract? (As this is a metric measuring an ability of dubious value relative to many others needed to succeed, might it be inherently flawed?) Or instead, who has the mix of qualities that renders her most likely to succeed in her endeavors and able to undertake the broadest number of endeavors?
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:08 PM   #5003
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Maybe the big idea in that book, which is great, is that "intelligence" is not a single thing susceptible to measurement with a single metric, and that when scientists purport to measure "intelligence" they are measuring some subset of it that they particularly value for cultural reasons.
Good summary of that key point.

The book I recommend most often on the whole topic of intelligence is "Proust and the Squid", which isn't part of the whole Murray/Gould polemic but instead an attempt to actually use the science involve to help people read. It's written by a woman steeped in the science but intended for nonscientists.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:09 PM   #5004
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Who selects the Nobel winner?
Swedes.

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How objective are their criteria?
Well, the Swedes are near the top of the list, so they have to be accurate, right?
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:32 PM   #5005
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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Agreed. That's the 800 lb gorilla in this conversation. Bunch of geeks come up with a test they say measures objective intelligence. But who selects the measurements that make up this objective assessment? That same star chamber of geeks.

Who selects the Nobel winner? How objective are their criteria?

I can look at the B student with street smarts and the A student without them and tell you the latter is technically probably smarter. But I can also tell you the former is probably going to do a hell of a lot better in life. So what measure should we use? Who can think best in the abstract? (As this is a metric measuring an ability of dubious value relative to many others needed to succeed, might it be inherently flawed?) Or instead, who has the mix of qualities that renders her most likely to succeed in her endeavors and able to undertake the broadest number of endeavors?
There are no "objective" criteria. "Intelligence" is a social construct.
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Old 01-02-2020, 03:33 PM   #5006
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Re: Doesn’t Matter Who Wins the K Race; We’re All the Same

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There are no "objective" criteria. "Intelligence" is a social construct.
Wait, this has to mean that ... stupidity is too? Right?

Sebby, you're off the hook for '16.
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