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Old 12-02-2019, 03:57 PM   #4591
Tyrone Slothrop
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Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
You pathetic tool. You actually went back to an earlier discussion, yanked a quote from it that fit your misrepresentation, and then shoehorned it into this thread so you wouldn't lose a point.

Is your insecurity truly as limitless as it appears?

Here's the post to which you responded -- the immediate discussion at hand:
You realize that when you say the majority of Trumpkins are bigots you're talking out of your equally stretched ass. There's no way you can prove that. None.

You can say all sorts of shit here and people won't challenge it, but if you said it in a setting where people actually scrutinized what you're saying, a significant number of them would laugh at you.

A number of different people would of course do the same to me, for different reasons, of course.

Validation by fellow travelers doesn't mean you're right. It means you've picked your audience well. Were I to venture into a medium populated with people who favored the media criticisms of, say, Taibbi, Greenwald, or Chris Hedges, or people who favored third party candidates, or even people who simply favor Bernie, I'd be validated and you'd be mocked.

You're focused on the election, and Trump. I'm not. I'm more interested in the forces that caused Trump. Call me crazy, but I think obsessing about the symptoms while ignoring the underlying disease is just... dumb.
Are you for real? It's the same conversation, from last Tuesday. Why do you think we are talking about whether Trumpkins are bigots? It's because you just brought it up.

And what "point" do you think I'm "losing"? My point was that the right lives in its own epistemic bubble. I wasn't arguing about the relationship between Trump and bigotry. The way you attribute wild ideas to people to your left only proves my point.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:15 PM   #4592
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

Quote:
And to address your point, I would cite the studies that say racism and sexism (and not economic anxiety) actually drove voters to Trump. You know, the ones you try so hard to ignore.
I'm not ignoring them. I think about a 1/3 to 40% of his vote was bigoted in one way or another.

Quote:
My Republican friends (some of whom are lunatics) either plug their ears when it comes to the racist shit or they resort to whataboutism. Hell, a guy I grew up with told me the other day that black people should like Trump because immigrants tend to take resources that would otherwise go to poor blacks. We argued about why he was wrong, of course. But one thing is for sure: None of them deny the racism anymore. Even they accept that Trump and Miller and their racist fucking policies are indeed racist. They either overlook it because their 401k is up or they embrace it as one the main features of his Presidency.
Right. Except Trump and Miller are not Trump's voters. The issue I was raising was the argument made after 2016 that a majority of his voters were racist. Now, of course that's walked back when challenged. If I say that sounds high, people like Ty will backpedal and say it's "some percentage." Not you. I think you really think it's a majority.

Quote:
Also, I doubt anyone you know would laugh at me, unless it was behind my back, because I bet the Republicans you know are full of bravery on the internet only. Like you.
Seriously? People aren't allowed to laugh at you? This isn't 1880s honor culture. If I say something to someone and they think it's absurd, they'd had better laugh at me. If you have an opinion and you air it, people are allowed to mock it.

Quote:
What is amazing about you is that you manage to build up a reality in your head and there is nothing that can penetrate that vibranium-reinforced empty vacuum. You think I only talk about politics with people who agree with me, or that I only do it here, or that the media is a leftist monolith, or everyone in cities share the same opinions, or whatever. You absolutely ignore anything anyone says that doesn't fit your stupid, limited, "what you think you think you think" bullshit narrative in favor of your own and then you argue that. That's why almost everything you post is fucking idiotic.
I have said a percentage of Trump voters are racist. I draw the line at people abusing that fact and stretching it to suggest that racism or bigotry explains the man's voters. Brexit and Trumpism are complex, and it infuriates me to hear people try to simplify them.

Quote:
If I say racism is the feature, not an outlier, and I point to policy and proof that those who set his policy are actually raging racists, that has nothing to do with the election. If we talk about the racism that drove the 35% of this country that loves racism to a racist, that's not discussing a fucking symptom. Jesus fucking Christ.
If that's all we discuss, and we don't address the economic issues that drove the other 65% to vote for him, we do ourselves a grave disservice. And that's what we've been doing.

Hell, just bringing up Taibbi's book here is met with anger. Why? Because he asserts that the media has been oversimplifying these issues? What's wrong with doing that? Let me guess... Perhaps because if we do that, things turn from an easy narrative of bigot candidates and their bigoted voters to one about complex economic issues where nobody can so easily claim the moral high ground?

The Right and the Left have narratives. A lot of the Left's narratives find there way into discussions here. Taibbi does a great job of exploring how these narratives are created. It hurts no one, and actually improves political debate, to engage that discussion.

Or you can just keep having the same conversations over and over and wonder why on earth your "side" keeps losing elections.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:16 PM   #4593
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Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Are you for real? It's the same conversation, from last Tuesday. Why do you think we are talking about whether Trumpkins are bigots? It's because you just brought it up.

And what "point" do you think I'm "losing"? My point was that the right lives in its own epistemic bubble. I wasn't arguing about the relationship between Trump and bigotry. The way you attribute wild ideas to people to your left only proves my point.
You go back and use a CTRL + F to find that bon mot?

Gold star for you!
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:31 PM   #4594
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Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.

Hey, everyone, what do you think? Will any of Duncan Hunter's girlfriends stick with him while he's in prison? Or will he have to go back to his wife?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:52 PM   #4595
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I'm not ignoring them. I think about a 1/3 to 40% of his vote was bigoted in one way or another.
I firmly believe that almost all of his supporters are racist or okay with racism because it doesn't affect them. But the distinction is absolutely meaningless to me because Trump's policies are actually fucking racist. He fans racism. He thrives on it. He quotes and retweets racists with the largest megaphone in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Right. Except Trump and Miller are not Trump's voters. The issue I was raising was the argument made after 2016 that a majority of his voters were racist.
This is what I'm talking about. You can only have a conversation on your weird ass terms. You accuse everyone of something (in this case that the majority of his voters are racist) and then that's it. It's all related. If you can't handle a conversation that takes that into account, you are a clown who can only focus on what's in your clown head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Now, of course that's walked back when challenged. If I say that sounds high, people like Ty will backpedal and say it's "some percentage."
That isn't what happened. Ty pushed back on your assertion and how you tried to pigeonhole him and the conversation. You can only discuss this topic (and all topics) on your own screwy terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Not you. I think you really think it's a majority.
If his policies are racist and he says racist things and he hires racist people and fans the flames of racist hate to his screaming, lunatic followers, what fucking difference does it make if you have true racist feelings in your heart or you love a man who does all the racist things I've listed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Seriously? People aren't allowed to laugh at you? This isn't 1880s honor culture. If I say something to someone and they think it's absurd, they'd had better laugh at me. If you have an opinion and you air it, people are allowed to mock it.
You can't be serious. If I say something mock-worthy, everyone should feel free to mock away. If I say that Trump fans the flames of racial hatred to the detriment of this country and people like me and someone laughs in my face, they've got a problem. Since that statement is a fact, the act of laughing in my face would be a challenge. And I don't think the people you know at your cocktail parties have the balls for that. Stop being obtuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I have said a percentage of Trump voters are racist. I draw the line at people abusing that fact and stretching it to suggest that racism or bigotry explains the man's voters. Brexit and Trumpism are complex, and it infuriates me to hear people try to simplify them.
What is infuriating is your inability to listen. If we're arguing about the number of racists supporting Trump, why do you think that means I've rejected all other factors when it comes to why he won? If every single Trump voter is racist, there are still many reasons why he won. Among those are the racist gerrymandering and vote suppression. We've also all discussed third-party voting (hi Hank!) in this ridiculous electoral college system. We've spent plenty of time talking about economic factors. But your dismissal of the studies that state that racism and sexism drove him to win because you think the line should be drawn at 40% racist is just fucking stupid. No one here thinks any of this shit is the sole reason for his win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
If that's all we discuss, and we don't address the economic issues that drove the other 65% to vote for him, we do ourselves a grave disservice. And that's what we've been doing.
Wrong. We've spent 3 years talking about what makes Trump voters tick. We've discussed automation, foreign trade, the drawn out death of fossil fuels, demographic shifts, immigration, the economy generally, taxation, etc. But whenever anyone brings up the question of whether race played a significant role (and points to a study that says it most definitely has), you throw this same little shit fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Hell, just bringing up Taibbi's book here is met with anger. Why? Because he asserts that the media has been oversimplifying these issues? What's wrong with doing that?
I didn't really respond to your Taibbi posts because I think that guy has gone off the deep end. So I'm less likely to care about his opinion. Same with Dershowitz or Lindsay Graham. It's not just because I disagree with their points that I dismiss them. It's because there is something off with them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Your problem Let me guess... Perhaps because if we do that, things turn from an easy narrative of bigot candidates and their bigoted voters to one about complex economic issues where nobody can so easily claim the moral high ground?
Please give me a few minutes to re-roll my eyes all the way back to the front of my head, because this sentence is completely fucking ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
The Right and the Left have narratives. A lot of the Left's narratives find there way into discussions here. Taibbi does a great job of exploring how these narratives are created. It hurts no one, and actually improves political debate, to engage that discussion.
Here's the thing: I probably won't read Taibbi's book. He seems to have turned into a kook. But if you are telling me that the Left (read: all of the media not named Fox News and Breibart) has a narrative, you're stupid. If that's Taibbi's point, his point is stupid. If you want to point at Fox and Breitbart, two sources that fucking coordinate with the Trump Administration and tell me they have a narrative, okay. That makes sense.

If you're talking about the Left's narrative generally (Trump does awful shit) like this is somehow coordinated derangement (and you've said this) and not just based on the awful shit he is clearly doing, I'm not interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
Or you can just keep having the same conversations over and over and wonder why on earth your "side" keeps losing elections.
Oh Sebby! Thank god for you! Bringing your much-needed perspective and insight to this conversation and not just saying stupid shit constantly to be contrary or because you think everyone is tribal and can't have an independent thought unless it's the opposite of what they actually think! Thank you so much for your service.

TM

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Old 12-02-2019, 05:10 PM   #4596
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
I firmly believe that almost all of his supporters are racist or okay with racism because it doesn't affect them. But the distinction is absolutely meaningless to me because Trump's policies are actually fucking racist. He fans racism. He thrives on it. He quotes and retweets racists with the largest megaphone in the world.
Real live quote from Trumpster relative I did not get together with this Thanksgiving: "You can't call me a racist just because I believe white people are superior."
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:12 PM   #4597
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Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
You go back and use a CTRL + F to find that bon mot?

Gold star for you!
There's a little tab at the top of the screen that lets you go back a page. I remembered that we were talking about bigoted Trump voters because you brought them up.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:20 PM   #4598
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post
If you're talking about the Left's narrative generally (Trump does awful shit) like this is somehow coordinated derangement (and you've said this) and not just based on the awful shit he is clearly doing, I'm not interested.
It's one thing to have your own narrative, and another thing to believe in your own facts. There are plenty of narratives out there. You can believe that the US has been an imperialist genocidal project from the arrival of the first Vikings off Newfoundland, or you can believe that the US has been the global avatar for democracy, or you can believe that the US reflects the triumph of free-market capitalism, or whatever other narrative you want, but those are all narratives that can be based on actual facts, and you can dispute them with other actual facts.

What is different about the right is its epistemic bubble. What I said in the post that Sebby responded to with made-up nonsense about Trumpkin bigots was: "But it seems like a bigger problem that conservatives have constructed an alternate reality which is impervious to facts that the rest of us get. You engage in a little both-sideism here, as you are wired to do, but I don't know of a single person who thinks that everything in the Steele dossier is right, but there are plenty of people like Slave who reject it as fake." It still seems like a bigger problem than media laziness, or whatever else Taibbi is on about.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:24 PM   #4599
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

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Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
Real live quote from Trumpster relative I did not get together with this Thanksgiving: "You can't call me a racist just because I believe white people are superior."
Brilliant.

TM
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:58 PM   #4600
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

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Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall View Post

If his policies are racist and he says racist things and he hires racist people and fans the flames of racist hate to his screaming, lunatic followers, what fucking difference does it make if you have true racist feelings in your heart or you love a man who does all the racist things I've listed?
Or you vote for a man despite knowing he is pushing racism, while telling yourself you aren't racist? I have voted for a lot of R's who people said were doing racist things. I disagreed and pulled the lever. I just really don't see how one can say Trump is not pushing racist agendas to gather votes (I actually think he is likely less racist than his voters- I think he believes everyone not his blood relative is beneath him and inferior and deserving of scorn and any shit he wants to hit us with).
Quote:

What is infuriating is your inability to listen. If we're arguing about the number of racists supporting Trump, why do you think that means I've rejected all other factors when it comes to why he won? If every single Trump voter is racist, there are still many reasons why he won. Among those are the racist gerrymandering and vote suppression. We've also all discussed third-party voting (hi Hank!) in this ridiculous electoral college system. We've spent plenty of time talking about economic factors. But your dismissal of the studies that state that racism and sexism drove him to win because you think the line should be drawn at 40% racist is just fucking stupid. No one here thinks any of this shit is the sole reason for his win.




TM
I keep focusing on 3rd party voters because I believe those are minds that can change. I do not see Trump voters changing their minds. Not trying to be a pessimist, but no press has really pushed the 3rd party voters and man those fucks need to be hit up.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:01 PM   #4601
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
It's one thing to have your own narrative, and another thing to believe in your own facts. There are plenty of narratives out there. You can believe that the US has been an imperialist genocidal project from the arrival of the first Vikings off Newfoundland, or you can believe that the US has been the global avatar for democracy, or you can believe that the US reflects the triumph of free-market capitalism, or whatever other narrative you want, but those are all narratives that can be based on actual facts, and you can dispute them with other actual facts.

What is different about the right is its epistemic bubble. What I said in the post that Sebby responded to with made-up nonsense about Trumpkin bigots was: "But it seems like a bigger problem that conservatives have constructed an alternate reality which is impervious to facts that the rest of us get. You engage in a little both-sideism here, as you are wired to do, but I don't know of a single person who thinks that everything in the Steele dossier is right, but there are plenty of people like Slave who reject it as fake." It still seems like a bigger problem than media laziness, or whatever else Taibbi is on about.
When in front of a Jury do you use words like "epistemic?" Oh wait, never mind.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:06 PM   #4602
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
I keep focusing on 3rd party voters because I believe those are minds that can change. I do not see Trump voters changing their minds. Not trying to be a pessimist, but no press has really pushing the 3rd party voters and man those fucks need to be hit up.
I am in full agreement. In fact, I remember blaming Susan Sarandon and her idiot followers. Bernie Sanders took shots for not leaving the race soon enough (even though he succeeded in his only practical goal of moving Hillary to the left) and handing Trump the "Hillary is Wall Street" attack he leveled so successfully. We also discussed Hillary assuming states she needed to attend to in her campaign which were neglected as a reason why she lost. And I remember quite clearly blaming Comey for his idiotic speech about "new emails" a week before the election as a huge reason why she lost. All Sebby hears when we discuss whether or not Trump's followers are racist (all, mostly, a whole bunch, whatever) is that it is the only reason why he won. It's fucking absurd.

TM

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Old 12-02-2019, 06:09 PM   #4603
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
It's one thing to have your own narrative, and another thing to believe in your own facts. There are plenty of narratives out there. You can believe that the US has been an imperialist genocidal project from the arrival of the first Vikings off Newfoundland, or you can believe that the US has been the global avatar for democracy, or you can believe that the US reflects the triumph of free-market capitalism, or whatever other narrative you want, but those are all narratives that can be based on actual facts, and you can dispute them with other actual facts.

What is different about the right is its epistemic bubble. What I said in the post that Sebby responded to with made-up nonsense about Trumpkin bigots was: "But it seems like a bigger problem that conservatives have constructed an alternate reality which is impervious to facts that the rest of us get. You engage in a little both-sideism here, as you are wired to do, but I don't know of a single person who thinks that everything in the Steele dossier is right, but there are plenty of people like Slave who reject it as fake." It still seems like a bigger problem than media laziness, or whatever else Taibbi is on about.
You just said that I made up facts. What did I make up?

You, otoh, did make up facts. You said I said “all” where I said “majority.” When I flagged that, you went back to another discussion (it was not the same conversation).

Now, TM has explained the logic under which he claims a majority of Trump voters are bigots. I have stated I believe 33-40% are. So now I ask you, are a majority of Trump voters bigots? And while we’re at it, what would be your estimate of the percentage be?
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:12 PM   #4604
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Re: Knock yourself out -- preen away.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
There's a little tab at the top of the screen that lets you go back a page. I remembered that we were talking about bigoted Trump voters because you brought them up.
You did it from memory? Extra cookies at lunch!

(Nevermind the topic “bigoted Trump voters” is so self-servingly broad it can cover almost all of our discussions re Trump.)
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:14 PM   #4605
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Re: More Sebby bullshit

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Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski View Post
When in front of a Jury do you use words like "epistemic?" Oh wait, never mind.
Sorry if the rest of us were talking above you. Here's Urban Dictionary.
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