LawTalkers  

Go Back   LawTalkers > General Discussion > Politics

» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
» Online Users: 387
0 members and 387 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 4,499, 10-26-2015 at 07:55 AM.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-21-2018, 10:09 AM   #2356
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,077
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
This is fundamentally correct - Ferguson indeed has found his conservatism can be a substitute for rigor, and he is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of conservatives who maintain a position in academe because schools want a token conservative, despite his work being of poor quality. If Ferguson were moderate or liberal, he would have struggled to get tenure at a modest midwestern school. Just about every notable school has a Ferguson or two they can point to (other than Dartmouth, which buys them wholesale).
I'm aware (quite well, as I know someone who's worked with him) of Ferguson's shortcomings. But I think you're a bit harsh here. He does have respected works in his canon. It's his later stuff that lacks underpinning and seems designed for middle minded readers.

And he is an insightful guest on various podcasts and programs. There's a mind willing to admit the other side's points there, unlike D'Souza, who seems pathologically unhinged and rabid toward Obama.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:48 AM   #2357
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I'm aware (quite well, as I know someone who's worked with him) of Ferguson's shortcomings. But I think you're a bit harsh here. He does have respected works in his canon. It's his later stuff that lacks underpinning and seems designed for middle minded readers.

And he is an insightful guest on various podcasts and programs. There's a mind willing to admit the other side's points there, unlike D'Souza, who seems pathologically unhinged and rabid toward Obama.
I haven't made it past the first chapter of any of his books, because by then I felt like I'd gotten his point and he was just repeating himself.

Some of that may be the choice to write pop history instead of academic works, but some of it is just an inherent laziness and unwillingness to dig deep.

As to insightful guest - meh. He's someone you can have a drink with or eat a meal with, but he wilts quickly under questions from someone better versed in the subject matter he is dealing with. He would have ranked in the bottom 10% of my profs in college. He could have taught the jock classes.

When I was a young 'un, we thrilled at the debates, both public and private, between Edward Said and Bernard Lewis - there was a conservative who dug deep, who did his reading (even if he did stop visiting the Middle East after a spell). Edward Said has 1000 successors in today's academe - Bernard Lewis just two or three.
__________________
A wee dram a day!

Last edited by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy; 08-21-2018 at 11:23 AM..
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:01 PM   #2358
Not Bob
Moderator
 
Not Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Podunkville
Posts: 6,034
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
I haven't made it past the first chapter of any of his books, because by then I felt like I'd gotten his point and he was just repeating himself.

Some of that may be the choice to write pop history instead of academic works, but some of it is just an inherent laziness and unwillingness to dig deep.

As to insightful guest - meh. He's someone you can have a drink with or eat a meal with, but he wilts quickly under questions from someone better versed in the subject matter he is dealing with. He would have ranked in the bottom 10% of my profs in college. He could have taught the jock classes.

When I was a young 'un, we thrilled at the debates, both public and private, between Edward Said and Bernard Lewis - there was a conservative who dug deep, who did his reading (even if he did stop visiting the Middle East after a spell). Edward Said has 1000 successors in today's academe - Bernard Lewis just two or three.
I thought “The Pity of War” was provocative and novel (in a good way), even though my Not Revisionist* inner historian thought it was wrong with a capital W.

Confession: I only read enough Edward Said to be able to hit on the rebellious [name of the primarily Jewish sorority at my land-grant football factory undergrad alma mater redacted] intellectual girls. Je regrette nein.

*Usually
Not Bob is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:40 PM   #2359
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
This is fundamentally correct - Ferguson indeed has found his conservatism can be a substitute for rigor, and he is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of conservatives who maintain a position in academe because schools want a token conservative, despite his work being of poor quality. If Ferguson were moderate or liberal, he would have struggled to get tenure at a modest midwestern school. Just about every notable school has a Ferguson or two they can point to (other than Dartmouth, which buys them wholesale).
Ferguson was a full professor at Harvard, and gave that up to join the Hoover Institute, which has a patina of scholarship because of its affiliation with Stanford but is *not* the same thing at all -- it's essentially a conservative-funded think tank. Ferguson did some serious work, and then he abandoned it to do what he's doing now.
__________________
的t was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:42 PM   #2360
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
To be fair, choosing the neo-Nazi market segment over the Wall Street lap dog market segment is a meaningful distinction.
There is a really meaningful distinction between a Cap One Jacksonville Jaguars affinity Visa card and an American Express Centurion card, but they are both credit cards.
__________________
的t was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:48 PM   #2361
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
We absolutely do use science to determine that. The basis of the settled argument that certain groups have suffered pervasive bias and attendant disadvantages is rooted in anthropology.
I married an anthropology major, but please -- it's not a science.

Quote:
You can't do A without doing B. I mean, you could, but it's incomplete. To assess the reasons for current disadvantages, logically, you have to consider all potential causes. This isn't unique to the issue at hand. This is logically applicable to any discussion of causation of anything. All potential reasons must be considered.
Why? If you are trying a tort case, you don't need to consider the intervention of invisible aliens using technology we can't understand, even though it's a potential cause.

What if you just accept that systemic oppression is evil in part because it enlists its victims in their own degradation? Black policemen sometimes shoot young black men for no good reason. Women blame other women's clothes for sexual assault. And so on. You don't need science to acknowledge that. But you do need to explain why you think it matters.
__________________
的t was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:50 PM   #2362
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield View Post
I'm aware (quite well, as I know someone who's worked with him) of Ferguson's shortcomings. But I think you're a bit harsh here. He does have respected works in his canon. It's his later stuff that lacks underpinning and seems designed for middle minded readers.

And he is an insightful guest on various podcasts and programs. There's a mind willing to admit the other side's points there, unlike D'Souza, who seems pathologically unhinged and rabid toward Obama.
Not in the interviews I've heard recently. He was not inclined to entertain challenges to his ideas.

Speaking as someone who has read several of his books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Bob View Post
I thought “The Pity of War” was provocative and novel (in a good way), even though my Not Revisionist* inner historian thought it was wrong with a capital W.
Agreed, but in retrospect his desire to be provocative was a warning sign.
__________________
的t was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:01 PM   #2363
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
Ferguson was a full professor at Harvard, and gave that up to join the Hoover Institute, which has a patina of scholarship because of its affiliation with Stanford but is *not* the same thing at all -- it's essentially a conservative-funded think tank. Ferguson did some serious work, and then he abandoned it to do what he's doing now.
He's only been there a couple of years; I thought that was move was mostly about money, they were willing to pay him, give him a title, and not require that he teach.

I think he tries in a way.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:08 PM   #2364
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Bob View Post
I thought “The Pity of War” was provocative and novel (in a good way), even though my Not Revisionist* inner historian thought it was wrong with a capital W.

Confession: I only read enough Edward Said to be able to hit on the rebellious [name of the primarily Jewish sorority at my land-grant football factory undergrad alma mater redacted] intellectual girls. Je regrette nein.

*Usually
I will confess I never cracked Pity of War. A few years ago, my reading group (when we were still ambitious) did a WWI reading project where we had three histories and a bunch of literature, and I actually suggested it because it looked interesting. But several people got to it before me and it got trashed enough that I didn't bother, and focused on the other stuff. The consensus of the group was that there was a ton of stuff in the other histories that he wasn't addressing that undermined his thesis, and that it might have been interesting if the other histories didn't make it all seem like bunk.

I wouldn't read too much Said now, his disciples have all passed him, though back in the day he was a mentor of mine. The best of them is Rosa Maria Menocal, and she should be read if you are ever going to a reunion and want to impress those rebellious sorority intellectuals (now there are three words I never expected to type in that order).
__________________
A wee dram a day!

Last edited by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy; 08-21-2018 at 01:14 PM..
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:14 PM   #2365
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,041
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
I married an anthropology major, but please -- it's not a science.
are any "soft sciences" science?
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:44 PM   #2366
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 32,939
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
He's only been there a couple of years; I thought that was move was mostly about money, they were willing to pay him, give him a title, and not require that he teach.

I think he tries in a way.
You know who else touts his affiliation with Hoover as a sign that he should be taken seriously as a scholar? Dinesh D'Souza.
__________________
的t was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:49 PM   #2367
Not Bob
Moderator
 
Not Bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Podunkville
Posts: 6,034
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy View Post
I will confess I never cracked Pity of War. A few years ago, my reading group (when we were still ambitious) did a WWI reading project where we had three histories and a bunch of literature, and I actually suggested it because it looked interesting. But several people got to it before me and it got trashed enough that I didn't bother, and focused on the other stuff. The consensus of the group was that there was a ton of stuff in the other histories that he wasn't addressing that undermined his thesis, and that it might have been interesting if the other histories didn't make it all seem like bunk.

I wouldn't read too much Said now, his disciples have all passed him, though back in the day he was a mentor of mine. The best of them is Rosa Maria Menocal, and she should be read if you are ever going to a reunion and want to impress those rebellious sorority intellectuals (now there are three words I never expected to type in that order).
You, sir, are a snob. The Greeks may not want no [rebellious intellectual] freaks, but there痴 many a mile between tea and cookies rush early freshman year and engaging in Marxian dialectics junior year.

It starts, or so I hear, with the Bell Jar and Annais Nin.
Not Bob is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:51 PM   #2368
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,041
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Bob View Post
You, sir, are a snob. The Greeks may not want no [rebellious intellectual] freaks, but there痴 many a mile between tea and cookies rush early freshman year and engaging in Marxian dialectics junior year.

It starts, or so I hear, with the Bell Jar and Annais Nin.
The Jewish sorority at your large midwest football school was full of intellectuals?
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:57 PM   #2369
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop View Post
You know who else touts his affiliation with Hoover as a sign that he should be taken seriously as a scholar? Dinesh D'Souza.
I personally think Hoover is a step down and a nice way to isolate yourself from having to deal with people who disagree with you, but there are plenty of people there who are pretty bright, starting with Condi Rice.

I didn't realize they'd associated themselves with D'Souza. That's a great way to diminish your brand.
__________________
A wee dram a day!
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 08-21-2018, 01:58 PM   #2370
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Re: icymi above

Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Bob View Post
You, sir, are a snob. The Greeks may not want no [rebellious intellectual] freaks, but there’s many a mile between tea and cookies rush early freshman year and engaging in Marxian dialectics junior year.

It starts, or so I hear, with the Bell Jar and Annais Nin.
Look, I never experienced the large land-grant school thing, I consider myself educated by your posts.

As to the snob part, I prefer "Eastern Elite" or even just a simple "Globalist"
__________________
A wee dram a day!

Last edited by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy; 08-21-2018 at 02:30 PM..
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:13 AM.