Mother, mother, mother - there's too many of you crying.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Conservative don't want to government to give "their" money to groups they don't like. Black people as a first principle, but also gays, native people, immigrants and union members.

They have no objection to government that gives them the stuff they want.

The first part is not true as stated. There are the bigoted conservative whos, yes, only want the $$$ to go to them, or people like them. But these are a minority number of conservatives. The majority of conservatives are tax voters who don't give a damn about where money goes, as long as they are minimizing how much they contribute.

There's actually a big split in conservatives on this issue. Many of those tax voters see the Trumpkins as freeloaders. They don't want to give $$$ to the knuckledragging opioid users in coal country any more than they want to give it to immigrants. They abide these hillbillies because they're useful idiots, the same way they tolerated the Religious Right in Reagan's day.

Your second point, however, is ironclad fact. The double standard all of these "Conservatives" adhere to is, they'll happily maximize their own share of govt transfers. They dodge criticism of that by stating, "I paid into Social Security!" Okay. That's a fair enough argument. It's when they say, "I paid FICA!" that they start to sound full of shit. Because there ain't no way these people pay into Medicare half of what they get out of it. Particularly these selfish, self-absorbed baby boomers.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The first part is not true as stated.

Yes, it is. Jesus. It's 2018 and "conservatives" just recently elected Trump. The unifying principle of the American right is racism. It is literally the only thing left from what the GOP claimed as its principles a mere year and a half ago.

Yes, there are actual conservatives in the world. It just turns out they're electorally irrelevant.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yes, there are actual conservatives in the world. It just turns out they're electorally irrelevant.

These people are either racist and actively vote racist or they are okay with racism (and installing racist policy) and vote a racist into office because they want what they want. Effectively, there is no difference. The political outcome and the impact is the exact same.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Yes, it is. Jesus. It's 2018 and "conservatives" just recently elected Trump. The unifying principle of the American right is racism. It is literally the only thing left from what the GOP claimed as its principles a mere year and a half ago.

Yes, there are actual conservatives in the world. It just turns out they're electorally irrelevant.

Look, I'm not going to shit all over your narrative, but if you think the unifying vision is racism, rather than greed and selfishness, I don't know how to even talk to you.

The GOP is loaded with bigots. No doubt in the least. And a significant part of the party's appeal is nativism and racism.

But the unifying message that keeps the non-racists and non-nativists voting GOP is taxes.

My pet suspicion, and this might accrue from being upper middle class, which exposes one to tons of GOP voters, is that a lot of the non-bigot GOP voters are scared. They're not rich, they're living high cost lifestyles, and their margins are being squeezed. They're in the keeping up with the Joneses game, and view candidates as pocketbook impacts, and not much more. They make up a lot of justifications for voting for Trump, but in the end, it's dollars.

Recall, Trump had a lot of surprisingly prosperous but nor rich voters.

I think you underestimate greed. That's the only common thread that ties the hedge fund mogul, orthopedic surgeon, middle manager, and coal miner together. Racism only ties certain of them together.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

These people are either racist and actively vote racist or they are okay with racism (and installing racist policy) and vote a racist into office because they want what they want. Effectively, there is no difference. The political outcome and the impact is the exact same.

TM

Heck, the very notion of "conservatism" aka "things should remain as they were in the past" is inherently racist, because the past was inherently racist.

"Oh, but we don't mean that part" is and was bullshit if you're not in favor of doing anything at all to address inequity. You're for keeping it the same. You're for racism, no matter what stories you tell yourself.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Look, I'm not going to shit all over your narrative, but if you think the unifying vision is racism, rather than greed and selfishness, I don't know how to even talk to you.

The unifying theme is racism, which people view as being in their self interest.

But the unifying message that keeps the non-racists and non-nativists voting GOP is taxes.

You're confusing what drives donations and what drives votes. And you're confusing yourself for a typical GOP voter (which is strange as you insist you aren't).

My pet suspicion, and this might accrue from being upper middle class, which exposes one to tons of GOP voters

You know it doesn't have to, right? I keep telling you to get out of the suburbs.

They're in the keeping up with the Joneses game

Fuck those people.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You keep saying this. And I'm not criticizing. I just don't understand. As far as I can tell, the lack of ideas isn't the problem. When your ideology is "Keep everything the way it is unless we're enriching those of us who are already rich," you're not looking for ideas to improve things. You're looking for ways to keep money and the racial hierarchy in place. And those two things do not require new ideas. They require forceful application of all the same ones that have been working for centuries. Cut taxes, gut voting protections for minorities, enact voter suppression, empower police forces, jail minorities, empower corporations. Those principles are constant and holy. Everything else is lip service, which is why the right has a "lack of ideas." Hell, they don't need them to get elected. Just stick to the script.

It goes to what problem you want government to solve. On the left, people see a bunch of problems in the world that government can do something about. On the right, people fundamentally want things to stay the way they have been and are motivating most by trying to stop the people who want to change things -- they are reactionary. Conservative politicians are allowed to have a single issue on which they can see a need to use government as a force to fix things, usually because they have been personally touched by it -- a child who is gay or handicapped, for example. Those single issues are an updated version of noblesse oblige, and are OK because the efforts may help a few people but don't threaten the existing hierarchies.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

The unifying theme is racism, which people view as being in their self interest.

Racism is a result more than a unifying factor. They vote self-interest.

You're confusing what drives donations and what drives votes. And you're confusing yourself for a typical GOP voter (which is strange as you insist you aren't).

I voted for John Kerry and Bill Clinton. I vote all over the place.

You know it doesn't have to, right? I keep telling you to get out of the suburbs.

I kinda like my family. I'm with you in hating the suburban mentality, but there are trade-offs. What's a guy to do?

(And the city life was getting a bit obscene for me way back when. I mean, I kind of had to get away from certain things.)

Fuck those people.

Fuck 'em, hate 'em... I'm just telling you how they vote.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

It goes to what problem you want government to solve. On the left, people see a bunch of problems in the world that government can do something about. On the right, people fundamentally want things to stay the way they have been and are motivating most by trying to stop the people who want to change things -- they are reactionary. Conservative politicians are allowed to have a single issue on which they can see a need to use government as a force to fix things, usually because they have been personally touched by it -- a child who is gay or handicapped, for example. Those single issues are an updated version of noblesse oblige, and are OK because the efforts may help a few people but don't threaten the existing hierarchies.

Yup. Wasn't Edmund Burke, apologist for the French Aristocracy of Louis XVI's reign, the father of modern conservatism?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The first part is not true as stated.

The issue here is how do you judge "conservatives" - based on what they say, especially in polite company, or on what they do?

If you're looking outside the lunatic rump of the Freedom Caucus, finding a Republican who hasn't been voting for massive expenditures over the last twenty years is about as likely as getting an olive in your drink when you order your whiskey neat.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Yup. Wasn't Edmund Burke, apologist for the French Aristocracy of Louis XVI's reign, the father of modern conservatism?

If you're looking for the father of conservatism in the US, I'd judge from the statuary that the most likely candidates are Nathan Bedford Forrest and Robert E. Lee.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

You keep saying this. And I'm not criticizing. I just don't understand. As far as I can tell, the lack of ideas isn't the problem. When your ideology is "Keep everything the way it is unless we're enriching those of us who are already rich," you're not looking for ideas to improve things. You're looking for ways to keep money and the racial hierarchy in place. And those two things do not require new ideas. They require forceful application of all the same ones that have been working for centuries. Cut taxes, gut voting protections for minorities, enact voter suppression, empower police forces, jail minorities, empower corporations. Those principles are constant and holy. Everything else is lip service, which is why the right has a "lack of ideas." Hell, they don't need them to get elected. Just stick to the script.

TM

Actually, I think conservatives want change, but change that encompasses a return to their version of a past that never existed. And for idea, I mean economic and policy ideas to accomplish things, not a vague yearning for a whiter world and a desire to beat anything different into submission.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Actually, I think conservatives want change, but change that encompasses a return to their version of a past that never existed. And for idea, I mean economic and policy ideas to accomplish things, not a vague yearning for a whiter world and a desire to beat anything different into submission.

Conservatives are too exercised by fear to create change other than a return to yesterdays of yore.

The mindset is one of desire to control one's surroundings, to live on a chessboard where one knows all the rules, and the rules never change. Conservatives are a lot like older, established corporations. They hate risk and seek to neutralize anything that might effect a change with which they have to grapple.

They do not see upsides in change. It's a negative mindset.

I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone else. But it's not because I'm conservative. It's because I'm selfish and I see limited multiplier effects from taxes. I would drop this position if we had a universal income, because I see a lot of upside to giving people money to spend in the economy. Try arguing for universal income to an ardent conservative. Holy fuck. You'll be lucky not to have a wine glass broken over your head. (And then, in the next breath, they'll cite Milton Friedman, who of course advocated for universal income.)

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Racism is a result more than a unifying factor. They vote self-interest.

This is an interesting distinction. And I'm going to respond even though it's never a good idea, because I remember you posting about how screwed our approach to imprisoning people is.

If every single institution is set up to favor one group of people over all others, isn't voting "self-interest" inherently racist through willful blindness?

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The majority of conservatives are tax voters who don't give a damn about where money goes, as long as they are minimizing how much they contribute.

This is nonsense on stilts, and about as pointless as observing that the majority of lefties are red-blooded Americans who fear God and love their country. I understand that people out there say this sort of thing, and why they say it, but it's hard to think that you are so naive as to believe it.